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Demographics and the Dustbin of History
Armed and Dangerous ^ | Monday, December 02, 2002 | posted by Eric Raymond

Posted on 12/02/2002 1:51:58 PM PST by Leisler

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To: MadIvan
Of course that income doesn't mean much when housing prices are about twice what they are on the continent.

I'm a fellow Londoner and throw a fit every time I write a check for my rent.

61 posted on 12/03/2002 8:21:54 AM PST by Gracchus
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To: Gracchus
It depends on where in the Continent - some places in Amsterdam are extraordinarily expensive.

And even so, that is not quite the same thing as Belgian taxes.

Regards, Ivan

62 posted on 12/03/2002 8:24:32 AM PST by MadIvan
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To: Leisler
A cultural climate can change practically overnight. After Hitler came to power in 1933, didn't German fertility rise dramatically? After the Allied victory in 1944-5, didn't fertility throughout Europe rise just as dramatically? Who knows what effects the current war might have?
63 posted on 12/03/2002 8:47:04 AM PST by aristeides
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To: aristeides
After Hitler came to power in 1933, didn't German fertility rise dramatically? After the Allied victory in 1944-5, didn't fertility throughout Europe rise just as dramatically? Who knows what effects the current war might have?

A postwar baby boom is a temporary phenomenon where couples catch up on childbearing postponed during the emergency, mainly due to forced separations.

There is a direct relationship between economic development and reduction in birth rates. Since WWII birth rates have been falling essentially worldwide.

My understanding is most European countries have very generous benefits for parents, but those haven't boosted birth rates. Some countries have targeted incentive programs to try to boost birth rates, such as Romania, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, with mixed results, but with no long term impact.

Birth rates in Europe have been falling since the 19th Century. The trend is more recent in the Third World since development began there later, but those countries appear to be on the same curve. The UN predicts world wide population will peak about 2050, so the "greying" phenomenon will likely spread throughout the world during this century.

Immigration has put the US lower down the curve so the impact here will be delayed.

Your thought that cultural change could break this pattern is interesting. If, as some think, secularized, materialistic, Western Civilization is in decay and will be replaced by something new, perhaps such a change will occur. One example of cultural impact on birth rates is the Mormons of Utah. Even though Mormons are overwhelmingly European-American, they have not followed the Euro-American trend in birth rates, instead having birth rates comparable to many Third World countries.

64 posted on 12/03/2002 9:43:29 AM PST by colorado tanker
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To: Man of the Right
Economics is not the prime reason why we do not have children in the western world. The third world is much poorer than we are, even after the outrageous taxes, etc. And they have a healthy, growing population. Our problem is cultural and philosophical.
65 posted on 12/03/2002 3:44:16 PM PST by quebecois
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Comment #66 Removed by Moderator

To: steve-b
"Since social engineering does not work.."

Well...you may well be correct there. Perhaps there is nothing that can be done to lift western birth rates. If this is the case, then the west is destined to be overrun by faster breeding non-western populations. But, as our consolation, we can all be happy that the "McCulture" of the west will eventually spread to the third worlders themselves....at which time they will cease having kids too (probably long after the west has essentially been overrun). At that time, humanity will be condemned to global deflation.

At any rate, depopulation has long been noted to be a symtom of a dying civilization (read Spengler, for instance). I came across a salient quote by Augustus Caesar, who was facing the same problem. He made these comments when addressing this issue at a meeting of the equestrians of Rome (who were sort of like the upper middle class):

"How should I address you? As Romans? You are heading toward the elimination of that name. The truth is that you are on a collision course with our national future. What would be left of mankind if everyone behaved like you? You are murderers, in the sense of not giving life to those who should be your descendants; and traitors, in the sense of leaving your country bereft of heirs. For it is people who make a city, not empty houses or deserted squares. How can we preserve the state if we neither marry nor have children?"

A good question. One that we will all have occasion to ask frequently in the not-so-distant future.

67 posted on 12/03/2002 3:54:59 PM PST by quebecois
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
I essentially agree with your ideas. While I'm not sure that tax policy will increase the birth rate, its worth a try. I believe that we should offer a $10,000 tax credit per child to every family who meets the following criteria:

1) Married

2) More than 1 child

3) One spouse works

4) One spouse stays home to raise the kids

Of course, the liberals will scream that this sort of policy is discriminatory in favor of evil traditional families and against the variety of arrangements that they think are best for society (the feminists, in particular, would go bananas). But we are getting to the point where we have to do what is right and ignore their hysterics.

68 posted on 12/03/2002 4:02:51 PM PST by quebecois
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To: Leisler
But that won't wash. The U.S. is wealthier, both in aggregate and per-capita, than Europe. A pro-market political party in Sweden recently pointed out that by American standards of purchasing power, most Swedes now live in what U.S. citizens would consider poverty.

Impossible. Everyone knows the US has the worst poverty rate in the world....

69 posted on 12/03/2002 4:09:02 PM PST by Always Right
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To: quebecois
I agree.
70 posted on 12/03/2002 5:58:42 PM PST by Man of the Right
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