Our Islands in the Storm: Carriers as the new phalanxes.

National Review Online ^ | December 13, 2002 | Victor Davis Hanson

[Junior]

Germany in its darkest hours never launched a single one.

Actually, the Germans did have one -- the Graf Spee -- it was launched but never commissioned. The Russians nabbed it at the end of the war and it hasn't been heard from or seen since.

[Junior]

Carrier alumnus:

USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69) -- 01 APR 87 to 25 SEP 91.

[bray]

I've always wondered what the USS clinton would look like and if anyone would ever serve on it?? It would probably sink on it's maiden voyage anyway!

Pray for W and the Troops

[A Longer Name]

This assumes that the enemy tanker can detect the target reliably.

So these huge behemoths must rely on invisibility for protection. This doesn't sound good.

Besides, I suspect there is a way to detect them, or will be in the future. For example, a swarm of toy-sized unmanned aircraft scouring the area.

There's only one nation that can do over-the-horizon targeting on a consistent basis.

Well, even an inconsistent basis may do it. The enemy just needs to get lucky once or twice out of dozens of tries. And again, the technologies available to everyone keep improving and there is nothing we can do about it.

[freedumb2003]

Prayer for our Navy Carriers and their servicepeople and families bump!

[Man of the Right]

Remember the idiot Gary "Money Business" Hartpence, who wanted to mothball our big deck carriers? We've got 12 left. If I had my way, we'd still have 15.

[Poohbah]

So these huge behemoths must rely on invisibility for protection. This doesn't sound good.

They rely on the curvature of the Earth, just as ships have done since the time of Carthage. The sea is frickin' huge, and even the biggest damn ship in the world is hard to detect against that big a search area. It's far more likely that the carrier will find the ship stalking it than the stalker will find the carrier--the carrier has far more sensor assets available to it.

Besides, I suspect there is a way to detect them, or will be in the future. For example, a swarm of toy-sized unmanned aircraft scouring the area.

Toy-sized aircraft are not going to carry worthwhile sensor payloads to long ranges.

Well, even an inconsistent basis may do it. The enemy just needs to get lucky once or twice out of dozens of tries.

And in executing dozens of tries, he loses his forces--well, there's one nation that can afford the price tag of a big navy, and one that keeps taking losses.

Care to guess which nation that is?

And again, the technologies available to everyone keep improving and there is nothing we can do about it.

Ah, but those technologies are available to us, and the search problem ain't going to go away quickly.

[SauronOfMordor]

This assumes that the enemy tanker can detect the target reliably. There's only one nation that can do over-the-horizon targeting on a consistent basis.

At the moment, and as far as we know.

At the point where there are enough satellites up there to track every ship in the sea (by optical, radar, infrared, and picking up emissions) carriers will be in trouble. Particularly when any random container ship or tanker within a couple hundred miles could be concealing launchers for a couple of hundred cruise missiles

[jpl]

What the battleship was in 1941, the aircraft carrier is now: a big, proud, expensive...sitting duck.Aircraft carriers came out of WW II looking powerful, but that was before microchips. Now, when an enemy tanker can fire 60 self-guiding cruise missiles from hundreds of miles away, no carrier will survive its first real battle.

In theory, it is certainly possible for a carrier to be defeated, even though nobody has come even remotely close in decades. But if we ever found out who the offending nation was, God have mercy on their souls after our subs retaliate!

[Poohbah]

At the point where there are enough satellites up there to track every ship in the sea (by optical, radar, infrared, and picking up emissions) carriers will be in trouble.

Ocean surveillance satellites are of extremely limited utility and extremely high cost.

There's one nation out there on God's Green Earth that can afford to deploy something that wickedly expensive.

It's good to be the King!

[bvw]

Even the Swiss or Dutch could not build a Ronald Reagan.

The Finns, Norwegians, Swedes and Dutch could ... technically, but not hardly by ability to marshall the social motives and forces to do so.

[freedumb2003]

"Even the Swiss or Dutch could not build a Ronald Reagan.

The Finns, Norwegians, Swedes and Dutch could ... technically, but not hardly by ability to marshall the social motives and forces to do so. "

Hey, only God can make a Ronald Reagan. Not the ship is pretty cool, too!

[freedumb2003]

Me bad type - Not=But

[Long Cut]

Hate to correct you, Chief, but the Graf Spee wasn't a carrier; she was a pocket battleship.

Rather than have the Brits sink her, her skipper ordered her sunk in the Rio de la Plata, in South America. Most of her deckplates and armor were salvaged by the Argentines. In fact, some Ballester-Molina 1911-A1 .45s were made of this steel. Legend has it that when the slide is racked, a ringing sound, like a bell clang, is heard.

Obviously, these pistols are highly valued.

If the Germans in WWII ever constructed a CV, I never heard of it. I'll have to look that up.

[Junior]

My bust. It was the Graf Zeppelin. I did a quick google search and discovered my error. According to one source she (or "he" as the Germans refer to their warships) was laid down 1936-12-28 and would have come in at 28,900 tons. She was never completed and was towed away as a war prize by the Russians at the end of the war (supposedly loaded to the scuppers with loot).

[LibKill]

Even back in the '80s one of Reagan's opponents did admit that the carrier has one cardinal virtue, "You can move it."

Try that with an airbase.

Carriers are here to stay, and I'm happy about that.

[jslade]

Sowhat you are saying is that you are Communist.

[bvw]

Ach, you are right. Hey, what was the name of the western TV show Reagan used to host?

[xsysmgr]

...what was the name of the western TV show Reagan used to host?

Death Valley Days, 1963-65

[Junior]

I found a few photos of the KMS Graf Zeppelin at this site. One wonders how the war would have gone had she ever been commissioned.