The domestication of the russian silver fox. (40 year fast track evolution)

internet ^ | (10/29/02 3:59:34 pm) | dj

[Stavka2]

Do you understand the branching process of new species proliferation? Just because blue whales and humpbacks came from the same ancestor, through different environments and mutations they are no longer genetically compatible. This happens over time.

Why is it that you people fear evolution? In no way does evolution contradict the Bible, no more then other planets orbitting other suns contradict the Bible or gravity or the atom.

Or is it the self love, the narcosism, that does not allow you to accept that in His wisdom, God may have lifted us up from chimps and made us into human beings?

[rmmcdaniell]

This is a great article which can provide insight even into human evolution.

So long as you accept an intelligent outside influence!

Unless you are suggesting that Balyaev and his lab techs weren't intelligent!

Tell me how the lab tech's selection for tameness is any different from a desert's selection for animals resistant to dehydration.

[Stavka2]

Sorry, but you give Christianity a bad name. A faith built upon spiritual growth and questioning that brought up the great civilizations of the West. You are more akin to the Islamics that believe in blind subservance to a specific reading and absolutely no independent thought.

[f.Christian]

Bias is self favoritism(opinions)...missing the mark---off the wall!

[rmmcdaniell]

Can you point to the part of the article that deals with how those not selected were treated?

No, you cannot. You made assumptions about them.

The article said: "From the outset, Belyaev selected foxes for tameness and tameness alone, a criterion we have scrupulously followed. Selection is strict;in recent years, typically not more than 4 or 5 percent of male offspring and about 20 percent of female offspring have been allowed to breed."

If the selection was for tameness, then by definition those that were not tame were not allowed to breed. This article was not written like those "Windows for Dummies" books were everything is explicitly spelled out in full anally retentive detail. Your grasping at straws for a way to discredit this study because its implications are threatening your fairy tale beliefs.

[Jimmyclyde]

Or is it the self love, the narcosism, that does not allow you to accept that in His wisdom, God may have lifted us up from chimps and made us into human beings?

I guess I missed that part in Genesis.....the lifting us up from chimps and all.

[Jimmyclyde]

A whale is still a whale and a chimp is still a chimp.

In order for evolution to work, the whale needs to turn into something else. And the chimp needs to turn into something else.

A goldfish is still a fish, and a carp is still a fish.

Sory, no evolution here.

[Jimmyclyde]

A whale is still a whale and a chimp is still a chimp.

In order for evolution to work, the whale needs to turn into something else. And the chimp needs to turn into something else.

A goldfish is still a fish, and a carp is still a fish.

Sorry, no evolution here.

[gnarledmaw]

Wery good article. This stood out...

"the future of our domestication experiment is in doubt, jeopardized by the continuing crisis of the Russian economy."

She has a doctors degree but apparently isnt familiar with economics at all.

Lyudmila,
There are a bunch of people out there known as Americans. They will buy ANYTHING, even crap from China. You have the worlds only supply of domesticated foxs. Americans + domestic foxes = piles of rubles.

[Stavka2]

You probably missed quarks, atoms, tidal forces, asteroids, gravity and oxygen exchange too...not to mention DNA splicing, nuclear radiation and a the earth rotating around the sun, doesn't make that wrong, does it?

[Stavka2]

You obviously have no concept of what you think you're talking about. You probably got some second hand knowledge an half understood that. A fish can still be a fish and evolve into another fish. Evolution does not necessitate the changing or crossing of Kingdoms...but then again, you probably don't understand what I'm saying.

[Jimmyclyde]

You probably missed quarks, atoms, tidal forces, asteroids, gravity and oxygen exchange too...not to mention DNA splicing, nuclear radiation and a the earth rotating around the sun, doesn't make that wrong, does it?

No I didn't miss any of it, but don't muddy the waters, Mr. Science.

You show me in Genesis where it says God raised us up from Chimps.

Here I'll help you out.......Gen. 2:7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Like I said, I missed the part about the chimps.

[Jimmyclyde]

Evolution does not necessitate the changing or crossing of Kingdoms...

Oh really...how did we get here then?

You understand, don't you Stavka, that the changes in the foxes and fish were all caused by a higher intelligence(in this case, man)?

I'm still waiting for chimps to become human.

I mean their SO close to us....our cousins in fact.

[Diamond]

In fact the high adaptability and plasticity of species disproves evolution - species do not have to mutate to adapt, they already have the genes within them to adapt to different situations and environments.

Thank you, gore3000. I did read the article, and it seems to me that if some form form of putative evolution had actually taken place, what logically has occurred has been only adaptation (as evidenced by the survival) of the organism, the foxes, which is solely an inherent characteristic, or capability, of the genome, not a selection action of the environment or scientists' conditions, or anything else yet understood by science. "Natural Selection" is an EFFECT, not a cause, which applies of all organisms, even those that that go extinct, so how could natural selection (or any other type of selection, for that matter) be the cause of evolution?

Cordially,

[PatrickHenry]

Placemarker.

[qam1]

A whale is still a whale and a chimp is still a chimp.

In order for evolution to work, the whale needs to turn into something else. And the chimp needs to turn into something else.

Give it a few million years, If they don't go extinct first they might.

A goldfish is still a fish, and a carp is still a fish.

Sorry, no evolution here.

And a chimp is still a primate and a man is still a primate.

I would bet the amount of genetic differences between a goldfish and a carp are similar to the differences between a chimp and man. So without a doubt if Goldfish can evole from a carp, Man can come from chimps. Actually man and chimps came from the same ancestor.

Goldfish broke off from there ancestor ~1000 years ago man broke away from chimps about 2 million. Both very short times compared to the 5 billion years since earth formed.

Again if you can get that many differences over that short of time, Over much longer periods of time we can get all the differences we see in the species today. If man continues to play with goldfish for the next 10000 years (still a very short time in the scheme of things)they will probably get something that you would be able to say it really isn't a fish anymore.

[Aric2000]

And a placemarker for me as well.

[gore3000]

Thanks. Another problem with the theory of evolution is the time frame. Most environmental changes occur pretty fast, there is no time for mutations (as is the case here) to change the species to adapt them to a new environment. Therefore most of the adaptations which species achieve to survive are already in their genetic code. A good example of this is the famous Darwin finches. Depending on the amount of rainfall their beaks grow larger or smaller. This goes on back and forth with the rains. Clearly this is due to inherent abilities within their genome not to back and forth mutations within a few years.

[Condorman]

Clearly this is due to inherent abilities within their genome not to back and forth mutations within a few years.

It is also quite clear that this inherent variability in the genome cannot be due to slow accumulation of neutral mutations spread by sexual reproduction. Who was it again who demonstrated that a mutation must happen at the exact time it is needed in order for it to work? I forget her name...

[exDemMom]

I wonder what would happen if they bred chimpanzees for intelligence and manual dexterity? How long would it take before we could make a viable slave? We could add a few human genes so they could speak too.

Actually, chimps and humans share 98% or 99% (I don't remember exactly) genetic identity, meaning that only 1% or 2% of our genes are different. Meaning that, if the idea weren't so disgusting, it could be possible to create a hybrid offspring. Sick ideas aside, it is amazing what a big difference a tiny change in the genome makes.