Posted on 12/19/2002 11:49:09 AM PST by firebrand
Not significantly worse than myself, and a hike at 1,000-1,500 meters MSL isn't that hard on me.
They look like they'd be great mountain climbers to me.
You don't have to be a "mountain climber," you just have to be able to walk.
What ever, the sooner the better.
2150 ain't "sooner," it's 148 years from now. That still acceptable to you?
You know the Roman Empire may have survived had it got started on a wall of their own.
Actually, they did. Ever hear of "Hadrian's Wall?" Fat lot of good it did them...
Yep. I also had higher hopes for the newest (as far as I know) NY newspaper.
I've seen some pretty substancial walls around guarded subdivisions that I don't believe cost anywhere near that much.
What do those pre-fabricated walls that you see along the highways cost per foot?
Any recent road construction projects cost that much?
Any idea how much it's costing Israel to build their wall?
That concrete doesn't have to be poured to a density capable of withstanding the launch force of a freakin', inter-continental, ballistic missile either, Poohbah. It just has to be substantial enough to be a barrier to climbers.
Merry Christmas guys!
It's a straight scale-up from the MX MPS figure, based on how much concrete you're pouring--about three times as much. I made sure that I excluded all of the weapons-related costs A lot of the expense will be in simply getting the construction equipment to the construction sites--in most places, there's not enough of a road net leading up to the border to support construction on this scale. Every drop of water for the concrete is going to have to be imported from elsewhere.
The costs incurred in building the wall--ALL of the costs--get incurred no matter what corner of the budget you hide them in.
I've seen some pretty substancial walls around guarded subdivisions that I don't believe cost anywhere near that much.
First, how many of these subdivisions are built literally a hundred miles from anywhere, in a place where the roads would have to be extended to, and in places that have no water available or all the available water has already been appropriated for beneficial use?
People on foot don't need much in the way of roads, but heavy construction gear does. Your gated community usually doesn't need to build the roads leading out to it, or bring in every drop of water for the wall.
What do those pre-fabricated walls that you see along the highways cost per foot?
A lot less. Notice that they are a LOT lower than your proposed wall and would not stop illegal aliens from crossing them.
Any recent road construction projects cost that much?
It's much easier to lay a flat ribbon of concrete onto the ground than to stand it on edge for 2,100 miles. And the Interstate Highway System was completed long before the array of studies now required before breaking ground on any federally-funded construction project. (MX MPS was the first--and so far, only--large-scale construction project to be attempted under these restrictions.)
The MX MPS building program--the part that was not directly related to buying ICBMs, the vehicles to carry them, et cetera, merely the concrete-pouring part--was realistically estimated at $131 billion in 2001 dollars, and that had about a third of the total concrete pour (just pure cubic footage of concrete) this wall involves.
The simplicity of a wall relative to the typical MX MPS shelter is offset by the fact that MX MPS was to be built on flat terrain that was relatively accessible to a major road net. This wall's got to go through whatever terrain is actually present on the border strip--and it ain't flat, and there ain't a lot of roads.
Any idea how much it's costing Israel to build their wall?
Probably a lot less, because they don't have to go 2,100 miles worth of distance through mostly trackless waste, and the region in question is a lot flatter.
That concrete doesn't have to be poured to a density capable of withstanding the launch force of a freakin', inter-continental, ballistic missile either, Poohbah.
Actually, it didn't have to withstand a launch--the concrete shelter was not the launcher. It wasn't expected to withstand a close impact by a Soviet warhead, either. The idea behind MX MPS was to turn the MIRV fractionation issue on its head--instead of one 10-warhead missile being able to reliably kill 5 missiles in their silos, you needed 23 RVs to kill one MX missile (if the Soviets didn't know EXACTLY which shelter had the missile, they'd have to barrage an entire shelter complex--23 shelters--to assure themselves of killing the one missile in that complex). The shelter only had to withstand the shock from a missile killing an adjacent shelter--over a mile away--under this philosophy. Had they tried to make the shelters hard enough to withstand a close strike, the price tag for the entire MX MPS program would have probably been closer to a trillion or so 2001 dollars.
It just has to be substantial enough to be a barrier to climbers.
Yup. But it has to be 2,100 miles long. You ain't getting cheap on that scale.
I haven't seen any roads built with 2,100 miles worth of wall alongside them, have you?
I'm just telling you that it's going to cost you more money than you can shake a stick at. 30-foot-high walls with ramparts on top ain't cheap. The nearest data point we have to such a project would have only used about a third of the concrete you'd need, and Congress got themselves a case of sticker shock over that program and killed it off.
All they have to do is put it out to bid. The construction companies will not come back with your kind of numbers.
$70 million dollars a mile or $14,000 a linear foot is way out of line.
There's no way those highway barriers cost that much even trucked down to the borders.
Prefab walls will not provide ramparts for the Border Patrol. Heck, you won't get more than a couple feet thickness, max--and I can build a breaching charge to get through that wall out of ordinary household chemcials.
All they have to do is put it out to bid. The construction companies will not come back with your kind of numbers.
I'm sure they will. After all, it's no skin off their nose if the government has to keep buying new sections of wall to replace damaged ones.
But when it doesn't work, because your specification $70 million dollars a mile or $14,000 a linear foot is way out of line.
When you're talking about ramparts for Border Patrol agents to cap off pepper spray or stingball rounds at illegals climbing the wall, you're talking about putting them in place on site, no prefab work is going to accomodate those. Pour all concrete on site, heavy construction required, lots of new roads required, lots of imported water required.
There's no way those highway barriers cost that much even trucked down to the borders.
Fine, go ahead and use them. The highway barriers I've seen won't stop any illegal aliens unless they're in wheelchairs.
The ramparts can be prefabed, too. They can be made to just attach to the top of the walls once they're set.
Those prefab walls are designed to stop a semi-truck. They're locked in place by steel beams.
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