Father who told off gang killed by sword blow

The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 01/14/2003 | Paul Stokes

[dighton]

A father who stood up to a gang terrorising his community bled to death after being slashed with a Samurai-style sword.

Robert Dunne, 31, a scaffolder, was attacked by youths outside a parade of shops near his home in daylight. He died after being struck once in the back by the weapon with a large, curved blade on Saturday afternoon.

Three teenagers, aged 14, 17, and 19, were being held for questioning last night at Dunning Road police station, Middlesbrough, after going there voluntarily with a solicitor.

Mr Dunne’s girlfriend Julie, by whom he has a nine-month-old son Liam, was being comforted by relatives.

Friends said Mr Dunne had been determined not to allow young thugs to ruin the lives of people in the tight-knit West Lane area of Middlesbrough.

Detectives are trying to establish a motive for the murder and it is known that he confronted a gang of local teenagers three months ago.

Paula Kay, 21, a shop assistant with an 18-week-old son, said the gang of five or six had made life miserable for two years as they roamed streets looking for trouble.

Mr Kay said: “I think they are involved in dealing drugs and I know Robert’s family hate that kind of thing. He stood up to them when they were causing trouble. He went outside and told them to calm down because there were younger kids about.

“Robert was being a good citizen and a friend to his neighbours. Now he has paid with his life.”

A shopkeeper, 31, who declined to be named for fear of reprisals, said the gang was “always full of drink, no matter what time it is. They shout abuse and throw stones at people’s cars.”

Mo Nomaz, 32, West Lane’s postmaster, who called police and an ambulance, said he saw a crowd around “a pool of blood. It was just horrific.”

He added: “This is the type of thing you see in Hollywood films, but you never think it will happen on your doorstep.”

[GOPJ]

Hollywood glorifies gangs,

the media is staffed with dewy eyed liberals who want to save the gangs,

TV wants the ratings gang coverage offers...

A good man dies alone.

[FreePaul]

Better to die with honor, fighting for your principles than to die like a dog cowering in the dark.

Yes, but now someone else will have to look after all the dogs cowering in the dark. Is there anyone left? The underlying theme of this article is that these terrorists were operating freely in the neighborhood without police interference. Are the British police so handicapped by their Government that they can't control these local terrorists?

[motzman]

Thanks for your interest, and great tag line by the way.(Tim Roth was awesome in that movie)

I once saw his epee break off too on his opponents upper chest and then unfortunately plunge into the opponent's neck.....and by G-d's good graces missed the carotid artery and jugular vein...but still plenty of blood. It spooked me away from any further interest in taking it up. Is that common?

It's actually quite rare, but almost every experienced fencer has had a "scrape" with a broken blade. The worst I ever saw (luckily for me it was just the photo) was a Russian World Champion foil fencer get a broken foil blade through his mask, into his eye, and then into his brain. Unfortunately, he died.

After that incident, the standards were changed for the "punch" test on the mask to make it harder for this to happen. The USFA anbd the FIE (international governing body) were extremely serious about this. In the past, if your mask failed, you had to find another. After they upped the standard, if your mask failed it was IMMEDIATELY destroyed. No "I'll just use it for practice" or "I'll have it fixed" nonsense. I haven't heard of an incident since, although I'm "retired" from the sport.

Fencing is not only physically demanding, but the mental part of the sport is what seperates the good from the great. In fact, fencing is sometimes referred to as "physical chess", because you need to plan your actions two, three, sometimes four moves ahead of your opponent.

Another great thing about fencing (especially for kids) is that the vast majority of competitors and officals are CLASS ACTS. There are no Nike contracts to win, and tradition and respect are valued. Every bout starts with a salute to your opponent and the officals, and every bout ends with a handshake and hearty congrats to the winner. Since it is a tightly-knit sport, most fencers know and are friends with everyone involved. And you get to learn a little French (formal competitions are supposed to be judged using the French terminology)

PLUS, if your child is really good at it, a scholarship to a good college can be had...it's a lot easier to compete against 1,000 kids in the U.S., then the 100,000+ that football, basketball, and baseball players have to deal with.

Thanks again for your interest!

[motzman]

Try the Japanese term katanaka for one specificilly equipped with katana, or kenkaku for a swordsman in general.

Thanks, good to know.

Although rapier/main gouche/ buckler is also effective, my personal preference is the epee, with the non-weapon hand free. It's easier to keep proper distance, and attacks are made much faster with just one weapon. Plus, I wouldn't want to try to parry a katana with a glorified dagger!

Additionally, when using two weapons, you have to "square" your body, which exposes more target area, and makes it harder to defend. I've tried all sorts of ways, but for me, speed is the key defeating the katanaka

Thanks!

[motzman]

A quick inspection shows I have to oil them. I didn't realized that some people were touching them and leaving fingerprints

Oh, yes--never touch the blade if you can help it. By the way, my very best friend got me an awesome Christmas present; "The Apocalypse Rider" a two handed broadsword with an incredible hilt, handle, and pommel. Nicely carved renderings of Death, Scales of Justice, etc. Purely a decorative piece, however.

[ExSoldier]

Aikido is NOT Kendo, but it is a sword art and having fenced on my college team with both epee and saber I will take the Japanese version in any potential combat situation. Most of the moves from drawing the sword to sheathing it call for instant decapitation of your opponent. Most well made Samurai swords are capable of decapitating an OX in one stroke.

"the most deadly sword ever produced."

Well, that's a matter of opinion and on balance, I have to disagree. But then an argument like this is going to play out exactly like an argument between afficionados of the .45 v the 9mm as to which is the better defense round, or between Colt 1911 fans and Glock fans....see?

[wardaddy]

Thanks.

[pankot]

If the victim had a .44 Magnum he might still be alive.

[motzman]

Patton was a great Fencer, and only his low score in pistol shooting kept him from winning the Gold in the Olympic Pentathalon in the early 1900's (don't remember which one)

Patton insisted that he was cheated because although officials claimed a few of his shots missed the target completely, Patton swore that two of his shots went into the same exact hole as his previous shots.

Stranger things have happened...

[Shooter 2.5]

Sounds cool.
That artillery sabre that's in the picture has a not so nice imprint of my thumbprint on the blade. I guess if it's evr recovered from a robbery, I can always get it back. LOL

[ExSoldier]

"Better to die with honor, fighting for your principles than to die like a dog cowering in the dark."

Well said, sir. WELL SAID!!!!

[LexBaird]

You'd be much better off taking some fencing lessons, buying an epee, and sharping the tip. A well-trained fencer will beat any kendo practioner 95 out of 100 times.

It depends on what you mean by "beat". Do you mean tag a flick to the back of a forearm with 6 grams of force, or do you mean striking an area of your opponent with a blow that would disable or kill? Most epee fighters would have a damn hard time doing the latter.

Plus, you can easily affix a cap or button to the tip, and no one would be the wiser that you were carrying the most deadly sword ever produced.

BWAHAHAHA! An epee? Please. More deadly than the gladius, the zweihander, the rapier, the smallsword, the cavalry sabre, the arming sword, the claymore or the true katana? History ain't on your side.

[motzman]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. But it's no big deal, the skill of the user is always more important than the weapon

And an OX doesn't fight back (lol). In case you missed one of my previous posts, let me reiterate:

Here's an interesting snippet about the late fencing master Russell K. Weider:

"Born on June 27, 1907, Wieder had, in his youth, been part of an unusual fencing event. In the late 1930s, as east-west tensions mounted and the world neared the Second World War, the Japanese community in Panama brought in a Japanese kendo master and an American fencing master to face off against each other. Wieder was that American. It was fencing epee versus bamboo shinai. The kendo master raised his blade three times to begin his pass... and three times Wieder lunged, striking the kendo master's kote (right mitten). Wieder remained untouched. That ended the bout. Years later, Bob Lyle heard the story straight from the combatant, "He told me the story in his Lufkin, Texas living room and I saw the yellowed newspaper clipping."

[motzman]

BWAHAHAHA! An epee? Please. More deadly than the gladius, the zweihander, the rapier, the smallsword, the cavalry sabre, the arming sword, the claymore or the true katana? History ain't on your side.

I'm sorry, but you don't know what your talking about. The epee is present day evolution of the smallsword, and the smallsword evolved from the rapier. Rapiers (I have one) are MUCH heavier than most people realize.

A Gladius? puh-leeze. Cavalry sabre--too heavy. Claymore? have you ever picked up a Claymore? Claymores were used to chop through armor. Zweihander? Two hands, my friend...very slow weapon.

History IS on my side, you just don't realize it. Don't be so hostile...

[motzman]

Do you mean tag a flick to the back of a forearm with 6 grams of force, or do you mean striking an area of your opponent with a blow that would disable or kill? Most epee fighters would have a damn hard time doing the latter.

An epee strike to the hand or forearm will disable an opponent. Period.

As for your other "point", are you saying that a blade going through your heart, throat, eyes, or sternum isn't lethal?

R u series? (lol)

[motzman]

oops--last post was to LexBaird..

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

Thanks.

It's sort of a twist on Shakespeare's Julius Caesar; Act 1 scene 2:

"Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once."

[LexBaird]

I'm sorry, but you don't know what your talking about. The epee is present day evolution of the smallsword, and the smallsword evolved from the rapier. Rapiers (I have one) are MUCH heavier than most people realize.

I'm also sorry, but I do know what I'm talking about. Been there, done that, have the photos. The epee is not "the present day evolution" of the smallsword, it is a piece of sporting equipment originally designed to be a non-lethal practice version of the smallsword. If you made an epee stiff enough to use realistically and sharpened it, it would become a smallsword, and cease being an epee. It's like saying the shinai is the present day evolution of the katana.

Rapiers, historically averaged between 3 and 4.5 pounds. I have a real one and a practice, rebated one that I use regularly.

A Gladius? puh-leeze. Cavalry sabre--too heavy. Claymore? have you ever picked up a Claymore? Claymores were used to chop through armor. Zweihander? Two hands, my friend...very slow weapon

Every one of these has proven far more consistantly lethal in real life than any sport epee. Proven track record vs. speculative theory. Let me pair my gladius with a traditional scutum and see how far your epee gets. Claymores come in two varieties: the Claidhmor ala "Braveheart" and the baskethilted, one-handed claymore of Bonny Prince Charlie. And, yes, I've handled both.

Zweihanders were also used unarmored, sometimes in duels. They can do more than cleave, they can also thrust. If you think an epee parry will put aside a thrust from a zweihander, think twice. Your only option would be to void the blow. You can also choke up on them and use them like a staff. With an edge.

An epee strike to the hand or forearm will disable an opponent. Period.

A solid thrust to the arm with direct, in-line force may disable an opponent, but it is hardly a sure thing. Many duels were fought to the point that both people were wounded several times. The flicking attack used by modern sport fencers would merely piss someone off.

As for your other "point", are you saying that a blade going through your heart, throat, eyes, or sternum isn't lethal?

No, I'm saying that a modern epeeist doesn't usually land this sort of strike. Their attacks are rarely so committed. A sport fencer only has to depress the microswitch on the end of his blade, not strike realistically. Consequently, few train to strike realistically. Certainly not in the 95% range you claim as their likely victory ratio. If you were to enter inside the range of a 45" rapier with a 35" standard epee with enough committment to strike home, you would find that the rapier isn't as slow as you think, nor easily put aside with an epee parry.

Not hostile, just prodded a hot button.

[motzman]

Glad to see your level of interest. Don't get me wrong, I love all of this stuff, and you do know more about certain weapons and fighting styles than I do. I am NOT disrespecting any of those weapons or styles, but that wasn't the original topic. The original discussion was Fencer (Epee) vs. Katana (Kendo).

The final evolution of the european dueling sword, was the court or small sword. The most advanced "system" of fighting was the direct forebearer of modern fencing. You are comparing weapons of different times, which doesn't make sense.

This isn't gladiator combat. You don't bring an epee to a joust!

All I'm saying is, with no armor or shields, a fencer with an epee will have an advantage over a katana or any other bladed weapon. Assuming both combatants are of equal skill. The reason for this advantage lies not only with the weapon, but even moreso with the technique (footwork, bladework,etc.)of the fencer. And contrary to popular belief, good fencers can move laterally quite well.

If you made an epee stiff enough to use realistically and sharpened it, it would become a smallsword, and cease being an epee.

You're quibbling. Smallsword, court sword, and epee are all interchangeable, and vary in length and blade style. I'm simply referencing what's readily available today. BTW, my personal home defense epee IS three inches shorter for the exact reason you referenced. But it does not cease to be an epee. And it's razor-sharp.

As for assertions about parrying zweihanders and such, it's really a pointless arguement. A fencer wouldn't parry such a weapon; why even bother. The proper question is, how is the zweihander-er(?) going to displace the razor sharp point that's staring him in the chest? How is the zweihander-er going to get close enough to the fencer to even get a swing in without getting killed?

The flicking attack used by modern sport fencers would merely piss someone off.

The flicking attack is an invention of sport fencing. Fighting for your life is not sport fencing. There are plenty of other attacks in the skilled fencers bag of tricks to be bothered by this quibble. A well placed thrust to the hand will result in a weapon drop.

A sport fencer only has to depress the microswitch on the end of his blade, not strike realistically.Consequently, few train to strike realistically. Certainly not in the 95% range you claim as their likely victory ratio. If you were to enter inside the range of a 45" rapier with a 35" standard epee with enough committment to strike home, you would find that the rapier isn't as slow as you think, nor easily put aside with an epee parry.,

There's a lot of truth to what your saying, but it's out of context, in my opinion. Although many "maneuvers" that modern fencers utilize (like purposeful double touches) are not "combat worthy", all of the principals behind these machinations are combat worthy. As to having to depress a microswitch, the weight needed to score a touch is similar to the weight needed to puncture an adversary. Have you ever seen the bruises on the arms, legs, chest, and throat of a fencer after a competition? There's a reason an instructor wears extra protection while giveing epee lessons. If an epeeist is in duel to the death, he's not going to make an attack that exposes him to acertain hit; there is no second chance. You have to be familiar with one touch epee bouts. I've seen them last 3 seconds, and I've also seen them last a half hour. A well trained fencer understands "fencing" comes from "defence".

If you were to enter inside the range of a 45" rapier with a 35" standard epee with enough committment to strike home, you would find that the rapier isn't as slow as you think, nor easily put aside with an epee parry.

Dang, my 40" Renaissance swept-hilt rapier is heavy enough for me! Although the epee would give up some length, the rapier would not be able to maintain a full extension long enough for it to change the dynamics of the phrase. In fact, you have to draw back the rapier due to its' size and weight, to thrust effectively. And in my experience, it's not too diffcult to compensate for the increased weight and size of the rapier, just go down a bit further, and counterattack with opposition.

Most likely, the rapier-wielder would quickly find himself over his head against a faster., deadlier weapon. At least thats what happened when me and my fencing buddies used to do such things

Great Posts!

[GOPJ]

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