The Coming Wave of Grief

Citizen magazine ^ | Jan 2003 | Celeste McGovern

[Remedy]

The abortion industry wants Americans to think there is no harm in killing unborn children. We'll all soon discover just how hurtful it is.

"Janet" slumped into a chair and raised a gun to her temple. She couldn’t even hate anymore. For a time after her abortion, that was all she could do — feel a seething, bottomless hatred for her boyfriend, Mike. She hadn’t spoken a word to him since the abortion. A suburban police officer, she fantasized about "annihilating him . . . making him beg for mercy, just as I had in the clinic." Her rage eventually withered, but nothing replaced it — nothing but black emptiness. Janet pulled the trigger.

"To this day, I cannot think why the gun did not fire. I had always kept it in perfect working order," she recalled.

Still numb, Janet telephoned her friend Susan and told her what she had tried to do. Susan was there in a flash and rocked Janet on her lap like a child. But Janet didn’t tell her about the abortion, the cause of her despair. Susan took the gun home and later it went off in her apartment, blowing a hole in the wall and scaring her silly.

Life went on. But Janet wrote later:

Gone was even a semblance of joy. There was no sunshine to my days. Oh, how I envied the dead. I used to pray for death, begging a nonexistent God to give me an end to my pain. I find it amazing, in retrospect, how we can function so well in front of others, while suffering like that.

Thirty years and more than 42 million abortions after the Supreme Court’s landmark 1973 Roe v. Wade ruling declared that women have a constitutional right to "terminate their pregnancies," America is still riven by the daily killing of unborn children. Year after year, in poll after poll, a majority of Americans have acknowledged that abortion is the equivalent of "murdering a child," but a sizable portion of the same people also say they view abortion as a sort of "necessary evil" — sometimes the best way out of a bad situation.

But is abortion really a solution? That’s what the pro-abortionists have tried to convince us is the case. But the evidence — testimony from women, children and fathers that there’s a hidden, and painful, and permanent cost to killing children — is working against them.

‘Inherently Dangerous’

Janet’s post-abortion ordeal is one of dozens recounted Forbidden Grief by Theresa Burke, a psychotherapist and founder of the international ministry Rachel’s Vineyard, which trains counselors and helps women deal with post-abortion emotions.

"Once a woman is pregnant, the choice is not simply between (1) having a baby and (2) not having a baby," wrote Burke. "The choice is between (1) having a baby and (2) having the experience of an abortion." But what a convenience-oriented society has failed to recognize, Burke points out, is that abortion is just as life-changing as childbirth.

And it’s not surprising that most women think of abortion as having few, if any, lasting consequences: Most pre-abortion counseling is deliberately thin on information about the procedure, fetal development or abortion’s physical risks, let alone about the likelihood of long-term emotional turmoil.

"Everyone assured me not to worry, that there was nothing to be afraid of," recalled one of Burke’s patients, Nadine. "The counseling I received was like, ‘Yes, you can do this; yes, it’s safe; and don’t worry, you won’t have any problems.’ . . . I have been emotionally tortured by this experience for the past 24 years. It’s made my life a pit of depression and anxiety."

Some women, such as Sandy, are simply overwhelmed by the unexpected pain that arises after an abortion:

When a year passed and I still thought about my abortion every day, I thought I must be really crazy. It seemed like my life should be going on like normal, but in reality it was quickly falling into a million pieces. . . . I tried so hard to put on a front for everyone that I knew because I thought if they saw what was really going on inside of me that they would have me committed to a mental institution. I thought I was the only person who had this kind of reaction to their abortion.

But women like Sandy are hardly alone. Forbidden Grief co-author David Reardon conducted a study comparing women who had abortions to women who carried babies to term. Those who aborted their babies were 63 percent more likely to receive mental health outpatient care in the 90 days after their abortion. And the distress wasn’t fleeting, either. Reardon found that the post-abortive women he studied were significantly more likely over the next four years to be treated for psychiatric illnesses like bipolar disorder, neurotic depression and schizophrenia.

The findings fit with other studies, including a Finnish one published in 1996 in the British Medical Journal that found women who had abortions in the previous year were three times more likely to die by suicide than the general population of women — and seven times more likely than women who gave birth in the previous year.

Reardon said the elevated stress levels of post-abortive women may elevate their risk of disease, too; they have been linked to lowered immunity and poor health. Forbidden Grief includes the story of one post-abortive woman who ignored a cancerous lesion for more than a year before seeking treatment and now questions whether her delay was a form of self-punishment.

Even women who feel immediate relief after an abortion can find themselves suddenly overwhelmed by horrific bouts of guilt, rage, numbness or depression, triggered by the anniversary of the abortion, the baby’s due date, a new pregnancy or baby to care for, the loss of a loved one or seeing pictures of fetuses.

Psychological reactions manifest in a range of self-punishing behaviors from what Burke described in therapy terms as "symbolically re-enacting the loss." In a classic re-enactment case, one of Burke’s post-abortive patients often stuffed a towel into her pantyhose and took frequent maternity shopping sprees. Each time, she would return to her car, yank the towel out of her belly and cry. Others reported using drugs and alcohol to "drown the pain," having repeat abortions (in one survey of women who sought post-abortion counseling, 26 percent had had at least two abortions), eating disorders, shoplifting and nightmares (a full 17 percent reported having "waking or sleeping visitations" from their aborted babies).

"The preponderance of evidence is clear now that abortion has a higher mortality and morbidity than having a baby," said Reardon. "There is no such thing as ‘safe’ abortion. It is inherently dangerous."

‘Safer Than Motherhood’

There are undeniable medical costs too. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta stopped counting deaths from abortion in 1987 because of unreliable reporting and, many argue, an unwillingness to have that data available to the public. But women still die of legal abortion. They bleed to death, they suffer perforated uteruses, get infections and are rendered infertile. A 2001 Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists study of women needing medical care after abortion put the complication rate at 11 percent. In America, that translates into about 140,000 physical complications each year.

The documented effect of psychological and physical suffering among post-abortive women is only the tip of the iceberg, said Reardon: "If anything, our findings would underestimate the full risk," he said, noting that women who have babies also may be troubled by past abortions (thus diluting the findings), and some women’s psychological reactions to abortion take more than a decade — longer than the studies’ time frames — to manifest.

Abortion advocates continue to use outdated and inflated statistics about maternal mortality to portray abortion as "safer than motherhood," however.

"Abortion is 10 times safer than having a baby," said Vicki Saporta, president of the National Abortion Federation. Saporta dismissed the recent studies based on massive American data as "biased" with "just too many flaws to get into," though no one has refuted the evidence scientifically.

Asked by this reporter about the psychological effects of abortion, Saporta gave the standard response of the abortion industry: "There is no such thing as post-abortion syndrome. . . . All of the evidence suggests the best indicator for a woman’s reaction after an abortion was her frame of mind before it."

Some "pro-choice" Web sites direct women who are feeling "blue" after an abortion to remind themselves how carefree their lives are minus their babies — a tack Burke finds especially offensive: "Would you tell someone grieving at a funeral to try to picture how awful his life would be if his loved one had survived?"

‘A Gaping Wound’

If women seem to have difficulty letting go of their grief over an abortion, some also have trouble embracing children they later bear.

British Columbia family and child psychiatrist Philip Ney has done exhaustive research into the effects of abortion on women’s relationships with their children. He’s found that women who have aborted "unwanted" children are statistically less likely to bond with, and statistically more likely to abuse or neglect, subsequent "wanted" children — an effect he said is the result of deadened maternal instincts that promote nurturing and curb aggression.

Burke had one patient, for example, who came for counseling after being plagued by images of poisoning her children’s dinner and watching them die. She loved her children and was horrified by these evil fantasies that would pop into her head uninvited. Describing her abortion, she told Burke how the doctors had "poisoned" her unborn child.

Some abortive women are quite open about their abortion history in front of their children (saying things like "I could have aborted you, too"). Others, in their depression or rage and guilt, send out myriad subtle messages to children about what’s wrong, said Ney.

"It’s a sobering thing from the perspective of a child, to realize that your mother killed another child," he said. "To a little person it’s like living with a sleeping giant, always fearful that giant is going to awake again soon." Such children, he said, exhibit classic "survivor syndrome" symptoms. Like the survivors of the death camps in World War II Germany, they are anxious and deeply distrustful.

"They see their life as having no intrinsic value — you are only valuable because you are wanted," said Ney. "And that wantedness is subjective." That cheapened self-worth gets translated onto the worth of others, added Ney, and is manifest in acts of violence from road rage to random beatings.

"Whatever the true numbers of psychologically affected post-abortive people, there is huge gaping wound out there," said Reardon. But many people have had enough of their pain. Since Burke launched Rachel’s Vineyard in 1994 with little money and no advertising, offshoots have sprung up in 180 cities from Alaska to Florida. Thousands of women changing their hearts could change the heart of the nation, rendering Roe powerless. Said Reardon: "The floodgates haven’t opened yet, but when they do. . ."

‘I Never Got to Kiss Him’

None of this testimony begins to address the wider effect of abortion on fathers.

On Sept. 10, 2002, Brad Draper shot himself in the head in the parking lot of a Planned Parenthood abortion clinic in Overland Park, Kan. Local news reports claimed there was "no apparent relationship between the man’s death and Planned Parenthood."

However, according to CNSNews, on June 5, after he learned of the abortion of his son, Draper placed the following obituary in The Kansas City Star:

ZACHARY DUNCAN DRAPER December 2001 - May 17, 2002 Memorial services were held June 1, 2002, at D.W. Newcomer’s Oaklawn Memorial Gardens, Olathe, KS. Zachary Duncan Draper was [as] beautiful as his mother, loved by God and others. My little baby boy didn’t make it to his Daddy’s arms. I never got to hold and kiss him, tell him stories or read him rhymes. I love you Zachary and look forward to seeing you in heaven.

Draper’s family told CNSNews the suicide was on what had been the baby’s due date.

And the circle of pain widens.

Celeste McGovern is a freelance writer in Oregon.

The 5-minute pro-lifer

Suppose you have just five minutes to defend your pro-life convictions. What should you say? How can you simplify the abortion issue for those who think it’s complex? You can make your case in three steps.

1. Clarify the issue.

Abortion unjustly takes the life of a defenseless human being. This simplifies the abortion controversy by focusing public attention on just one question: Is the unborn a member of the human family? If so, killing him or her to benefit others is a serious moral wrong.

Arguments based on choice and who decides miss the point entirely. Would anyone you know support a mother killing her toddler in the name of "choice" and "who decides?" Clearly, if the unborn are human, like toddlers, we shouldn’t kill them in the name of choice any more than we would a toddler. Again, this debate is about just one question: Who or what is the unborn?

At this point, some may object that your comparisons are not fair — that killing a fetus is not the same as killing a toddler. Ah, but that’s the issue, isn’t it? Are they the same? That is the one question that matters.

Remind your critics that you are vigorously "pro-choice" when it comes to women choosing a number of moral goods. You support a woman’s right to choose her own doctor, to choose her own husband, to choose her own job and to choose her own religion, to name a few. These are among the many choices you fully support for women. But some choices are wrong, like killing innocent human beings simply because they are in the way and cannot defend themselves.1

2. Defend your pro-life position with science and philosophy.

Few people dispute that human life begins at conception. Prior to his abortion advocacy, even former Planned Parenthood President Alan Guttmacher was perplexed that anyone, much less a medical doctor, would question this.2 Embryos are less developed than newborns (or, for that matter, toddlers) but this difference is not morally significant in the way abortion advocates need it to be.

Also consider the abortion advocate’s philosophical claim that higher brain function determines the value of human beings. If self-consciousness makes one human, newborns do not qualify as valuable human beings. Remember: The reversibly comatose, the sleeping and Alzheimer’s patients lack self-consciousness. It’s far more reasonable to argue that although humans differ immensely in their degrees of development, they are nonetheless equal because they all have the same human nature.

3. Challenge your listeners to be intellectually honest.

Ask the tough questions. When people say that birth makes the unborn human, you can ask, "How does a simple change of location — from inside the womb to outside the womb — change the nature of the unborn?" If they say that brain development or higher consciousness makes us human, ask if they would agree that those with an IQ below 20 or perhaps 40 should be declared nonpersons? If not, why not?

True, some people will ignore the scientific and philosophic case you present for the pro-life view and argue for abortion based on self-interest. That is the lazy way out. Remind your critics that if we care about truth, we will courageously follow the facts wherever they lead, no matter what the cost to our own self-interests.

Scott Klusendorf is director of bioethics at Stand to Reason and author of the book Pro-Life 101: A Step-by-Step Guide to Making Your Case Persuasively. For more information, visit www.str.org

Footnotes

1. Gregory Koukl, Precious Unborn Human Persons (Lomita: STR Press, 1999), p. 11.

2. A. Guttmacher, Life in the Making: The Story of Human Procreation (New York: Viking Press, 1933), p. 3.

[Anti-Bubba182]

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[EternalVigilance]

Wow.

Incredibly grateful for this post BUMP!

[lawdude]

"Susan took the gun home and later it went off in her apartment, blowing a hole in the wall and scaring her silly. "

Is it just me or does this statement tend to discredit the entire tale? It just doesn't wash! Guns don't just GO OFF.

[friendly]

Beautiful post. I loved the debating posts. I find however that abortionists do not want debate. They scream, rant, rave... or just work insidiously behind the scenes like cockraoches.

[TEXOKIE]

Thanks for this powerful post, Remedy. The following is a post I placed on another thread earlier this evening which I hope will provide a ray of hope in this matter.

I have recently become familiar with some new research done by some people in Arizona which is as paradigm-breaking as the research done over the last 20 years ago or so by those who have been researching near death experiences.

Sarah and Brent Hinze have been researching pre-birth experiences and have written some fascinating books about what they have learned.

Their website is:

www.prebirth.com

They have written a book called "The Castaways-Safely in His Arms" wherein they explore in particular experiences of people with babies who have been aborted, or where babies have communicated with their parents-to-be and persuaded them not to abort.

Here is an excerpt from the last chapter of "The Castaways."

DEFENDING THE UNBORN CAN CHANGE HEARTS

Sometimes special opportunities arise to defend the rights of the unborn, as occurred with Sarah in the spring of 1997:

I was invited to speak at a breakfast of legislators, business, and professional leaders from the greater Phoenix area. Motivated by my love for children, including the unborn, I prepared my speech diligently and prayerfully to fit the half-hour I was promised. There was a sense of urgency in the air. Partial-birth abortion laws were under debate in the Arizona legislature. The people at this lecture could influence the final vote.

The morning of the breakfast, the speaker scheduled for the first half-hour went on and on, taking most of my time. When I was finally introduced, only seven minutes remained before the meeting's end. My fully prepared speech was out of the question. On the short walk to the podium, I silently prayed for guidance on what to say that would make a difference in so short a span.

Looking out over the audience, I set my notes aside and determined to speak from my heart. First, I quickly explained our research on the unborn, sharing briefly some of the stories I have collected, demonstrating that each soul lives before earth life and has a time, place, and purpose to be born.

Next, I spoke of the Oscar-winning film, "Schindler's List." Schindler knew about Hitler's insidious plan to destroy the Jews. While his fellow countrymen were either ignoring or contributing to the holocaust, Schindler risked his life to protect the rights and lives of Jews. He could not save them all, but he resolved to rescue as many as he could. This courageous man wept over lives he was unable to save. But the fact is, Schindler's noble efforts saved many thousands of innocent people.

I continued: Today there is another group of innocents being systematically destroyed--the unborn. "Those of you who protect the lives of the unborn against abortion, you are Schindlers. Each soul you save makes a difference."

I concluded with this account from our files:

A young boy drowned and later revived. After he had recovered, he described to his mother the brother he had met during his near death experience.

Puzzled, the mother reminded her son, "Honey, you know you don't have a brother."

"Yes, I do, Mommy. He was pulled from your tummy when you were only fourteen."

The mother was stunned. It was true. She had become pregnant at fourteen and secretly had the child aborted. She never told a living soul -- not her husband, not even her parents.

A gentle silence hung over the room. Eyes were moist. That group of people had truly "heard." They KNEW IN THEIR HEARTS that the unborn in heaven are entitled to their birthright on earth, the same as we who have already come.

###

We conclude this book with a prayer:

Father, when it is their time, may thy unborn and castaway children leave the safety of thine arms and come down to find safety in our arms.

AFTERWORD

A few days after Sarah's talk, the Arizona legislature voted to ban partial birth abortion. A friend in the legislature called and explained that a week earlier there were not enough votes to ban partial birth abortion in Arizona. Of those who voted to protect the innocent, many had heard, or heard about, a seven-minute miracle that changed hearts toward unborn children.

On June 28, 2000, The US Supreme Court, by a 5 to 4 vote, struck down Nebraska's partial-birth abortion ban. Because of this decision, virtually all partial-birth abortion bans throughout the United States are now considered unconstitutional.

--------------------------------------------------------

I recently heard Sarah and Brent speak in person. They give an awesome presentation, and if anyone has the opportunity to hear them speak, they should grab it! I believe that their research is the new part of the equation that we in the pro life movement have been looking for. It is truly the means becoming available which can be the instrument to change many many hearts one by one.

[AntiGuv]

Is it just me or does this statement tend to discredit the entire tale?

It's not just you..

[Remedy]

Best Reference Book on Abortion Complications Updated and ...Detrimental Effects of Abortion: An Annotated Bibliography with Commentary (3rd Edition). This expanded and newly updated edition is the most complete summary available of statistically significant studies on abortion. Compiled by attorney and post-abortion expert Thomas W. Strahan.

Elliot Institute director, David C. Reardon, Ph.D., one of the nation's leading experts on post-abortion issues is asking pro-life advocates around the country to donate copies of Detrimental Effects of Abortion to their local public, high school, and university libraries.

Though Reardon works full time on post-abortion research, he says Strahan's earlier bibliographies have always been his first reference source whenever he begins a new research project.

"Tom Strahan has performed a great service in tracking down all the best studies and organizing their finding in a way that is easily accessible to the average reader," Dr. Reardon said. "Without it, the task of searching for this material on the Internet or in a reference library would be overwhelming. Many of the best studies are simply not indexed under the keywords you would normally expect to find abortion complications."

Strahan edits The Research Bulletin for the Association for Interdisciplinary Research in Values and Social Change and has written numerous articles on abortion. He hopes this revised and expanded reference book will help people to better understand the range of risks associated with abortion.

"Most people think that because abortion is legal, it's safe for women, period," Strahan said. "They think that as long as the government says it's okay, then it must be good for our society. They don't realize that many researchers and scholars studying this issue have found that just the opposite is true."

• List of Physical Complications from Abortion
• List of Psychological Complications from Abortion

The Effects of Abortion Including Known Complications.

[Remedy]

POST #8

[null and void]

Guns don't just GO OFF.

But very rarely a gun will "hang fire" due to faulty ammo. The usual drill is to point the gun in a safe direction and wait at least 15 minutes before carefully removing the round from the chamber.

Or suppose a bit of gummy grit kept the hammer from fully traveling. The spring could eventually push the grit aside and allow the hammer fall on the round...

[SERE_DOC]

"Is it just me or does this statement tend to discredit the entire tale? It just doesn't wash! Guns don't just GO OFF. "

guns don't just go off

No they don't but the grace of a loving God is harder to understand to an unbeliver silimar to the intervention of a loving God to an unbeliver. It may not wash but who knows the mind of God?

[null and void]

A gentle silence hung over the room. Eyes were moist. That group of people had truly "heard." They KNEW IN THEIR HEARTS that the unborn in heaven are entitled to their birthright on earth,

Soooo, the aborted unborn go to Heaven.
The Bible says we are all born in sin.
If one is born in sin and doesn't subsequently do whatever it is needed to wash away the sin, they go to Hell.
Given Free Will, there is no way to insure any given child will select the right path.
Therefore, the only way you can insure a soul goes to Heaven is to terminate the pregnancy.
No birth, no sin, go to Heaven.

Did I miss something here?

[TEXOKIE]

Yes, dear heart, I think you did miss a great deal here! I am unwilling, however to enter into a debate with you over the matter. Suffice it to say that it is in my personal belief system that there are scriptures to back up a belief that souls who have not been born yet were created by the Father in Heaven, and therefore do come from Heaven. You are welcome to hold your own beliefs. In this great nation of America, perhaps you and I can just agree to disagree?

[null and void]

FWIW, I do believe in the soul.

I am troubled by the reasoning I expressed in the earlier post.

I feel like someone who has stumbled across that false proof that 1=0, but am not clever enough to spot the error.

I strongly believe that abortion should be legal, safe and vanishingly rare, after all other options have been exhausted, and only to save the mother's life. Never just because a kid is "inconvenent".

[Remedy]

• When a Baby Dies: Answers to Comfort Grieving Parents

• Where Do Children Go When They Die?--2 Samuel 12

• Tough Questions Raised (death of a 5-month fetus)

• Homicide Based on the Killing of an Unborn Child -- In this essay, Alan Wasserstrom surveys the history of laws which prosecute feticide--the destruction of a human fetus--as homicide.

• State Homicide Laws That Recognize Unborn Victims

• The Unborn Victims of Violence Act (H.R. 503) recognizes unborn children as victims of federally prohibited crimes of violence. If someone injures or kills an unborn child while committing a violent federal crime against a pregnant woman, the assailant will be charged with a separate offense on behalf of the unborn child. The bill simply puts federal law behind the common sense recognition that when a criminal attacks a pregnant woman, and injures or kills her unborn child, he has claimed two human victims. The House passed H.R. 503 / vote: 252-172 April 26, 2001

[GOPJ]

bump

[null and void]

Will look it over.

[Remedy]

FWIW, I do believe in the soul.

I am troubled by the reasoning I expressed in the earlier post.

I feel like someone who has stumbled across that false proof that 1=0, but am not clever enough to spot the error.

I strongly believe that abortion should be legal, safe and vanishingly rare, after all other options have been exhausted, and only to save the mother's life. Never just because a kid is "inconvenent".

Moral Question of Abortion is a very well written on-line book.

 

[MHGinTN]

Given Free Will, there is no way to insure any given child will select the right path. When a child arives, there is a period of MANY months when that individual human being has yet to exercise any free choice, thus they are without sin, though the parents are 'in sin'. The phrase 'born in sin' (and in sin was I conceived, to finish the line, paraphrased) refers to the state of the parents, not the child, and especially not the child that has yet to exercise any free will, as with the unborn.

[Remedy]

each soul lives before earth life and has a time, place, and purpose to be born.

Fetal Psychology Psychology Today, Sep/Oct98, Vol. 31 Issue 5, p44, 6p, 4c.

Behaviorally speaking, there's little difference between a newborn baby and a 32-week-old fetus. A new wave of research suggests that the fetus can feel, dream, even enjoy The Cat in the Hat. The abortion debate may never be the same.

• By nine weeks, a developing fetus can hiccup and react to loud noises.
• By the end of the second trimester it can hear.
• Just as adults do, the fetus experiences the rapid eye movement (REM) sleep of dreams.
• The fetus savors its mother's meals, first picking up the food tastes of a culture in the womb.
• Among other mental feats, the fetus can distinguish between the voice of Mom and that of a stranger, and respond to a familiar story read to it.

Awake or asleep, the human fetus moves 50 times or more each hour, flexing and extending its body, moving its head, face, and limbs and exploring its warm, wet compartment by touch.

Why people grow up liking hot chilies or spicy curries may also have something to do with the fetal environment. By 13 to 15 weeks a fetus' taste buds already look like a mature adult's, and doctors know that the amniotic fluid that surrounds it can smell strongly of curry, cumin, garlic, onion and other essences from a mother's diet.

Whether or not a fetus can taste, there's little question that it can hear. A very premature baby entering the world at 24 or 25 weeks responds to the sounds around it, observes Als, so its auditory apparatus must already have been functioning in the womb. Many pregnant women report a fetal jerk or sudden kick just after a door slams or a car backfires.

Vision is the last sense to develop. A very premature infant can see light and shape; researchers presume that a fetus has the same ability. Just as the womb isn't completely quiet, it isn't utterly dark, either. Says Filer: "There may be just enough visual stimulation filtered through the mother's tissues that a fetus can respond when the mother is in bright light," such as when she is sunbathing.

Along with the ability to feel, see, and hear comes the capacity to learn and remember. These activities can be rudimentary, automatic, even biochemical. For example, a fetus, after an initial reaction of alarm, eventually stops responding to a repeated loud noise. The fetus displays the same kind of primitive learning, known as habituation, in response to its mother's voice,

It's no secret that babies are born with distinct differences and patterns of activity that suggest individual temperament. Just when and how the behavioral traits originate in the womb is now the subject of intense scrutiny.

[lawdude]

"No they don't but the grace of a loving God is harder to understand to an unbeliver silimar to the intervention of a loving God to an unbeliver."

God didn't pull that trigger, sorry! Still don't buy it. The gun reference is just too, too anti 2A.

[LiteKeeper]

read later

[LiteKeeper]

read later

[MHGinTN]

I went to the range one afternoon and burned a couple of boxes of .45. Some of the ammo was military surplus. I had two jams and one was a misfire (no fire when struck by the firing pin). The round that didn't fire I tossed into the trash barrel behind the covered stands. Before I left the range, that round went off in the barrel, some fifteen minutes after I discarded it. You can't convince me that it's impossible since it has happened to me and to every other regular shooter I know, especially my son who averages hundreds of rounds a week. The incident causes me to take extreme caution with missfires now.

[ladysusan]

Very interesting post. I'd like to point out that women who have lost their newborns to adoption have nearly identical reactions. They report a full range of reactions from the guilt/shame you cite, through clinical depression ,PTSD, drug and alcohol abuse, trust issues, relationshp issues, anniversary type reactions as well as reactions triggered by baby showers, significant dates in the history of the pregnancy, the birth of subsequent children. Some report the numbness you cite, others seem unable to shut off the pain. Some split, disassociating that part of their lives and locking it away. Pain is a nearly universal experience among women who are mentally healthy, while denial of pain seems to sometimes characterize women who have significant mental disease ( ie, bipolar disease, alcoholism, schizophrenia.) While suicide is rare, the wish to die rather than live through another moment of pain is not uncommonly expressed.


I think it is significant that child loss, whether through abortion or adoption, causes the same manifestations of unresolvable grief in the mother. Reports now coming back from women who lost children to forced adoption in the 50s and 60s indicate that the grief reactions are both protracted and disenfranchised. In any event, these women have experienced debilitating grief for many decades. They too, have been pushed to the margins of society, with the loss of their babies unacknowledged and unmourned by the larger society.

As a moral and just society, we need to find workable answers to this major social problem. The manifestations of grief as reported in your article are virtually identical to the plexus of symptoms cited by women who have irrevocably lost children to adoption. The punishment for unintended pregnancy should be neither death for the child nor life long pain for the mother.

[Ronin]

I know some old time USMC grunts who would argue with you. Especially with the old .45 automatic.

There is/was sometimes a hangup that, as near as I remember, had to do with the grip safety.

The blasted thing would misfire, said grunt would put it down. Pick it up, finger well clear of the trigger -- and blow a nice hole right thru the wall.

[SuziQ]

If one is born in sin and doesn't subsequently do whatever it is needed to wash away the sin, they go to Hell.

I believe there is a loving God who will give those who don't have the chance to know Him a chance to see His face in Glory. As a Catholic I believe in Purgatory where those who are not ready to see God in His Glory can stay and by His grace and those who are praying for those souls will eventually be ushered into His presence. Who are we to judge what chances God gives to folks?

If someone has been a huge sinner all his life, and has turned so far away from God that he can't get back, I suspect that person will go to hell, but we're talking about innocent unborn babies who haven't anything more than Original Sin on their little souls, and won't have the chance to be washed clean in Baptism. I believe God has a plan for those little ones.

[babaloo999]

Sure they do. Don't you read the paper, or watch the news? Guns go off for no good reason at all. Someone's handling a gun, and BOOM, it just goes off. It's not their fault, of course. The gun just 'went off'.

[Old Professer]

Therefore, the only way you can insure a soul goes to Heaven is to terminate the pregnancy. No birth, no sin, go to Heaven.

Did I miss something here?

Simple impertinence does not an argument make.

[babygene]

You need to stop putting those boxea around your text. When the box is there, the text will not reformat itself for smaller screens. Some of us who have poorer eyesight do not use 1024X768 or larger screens because it's too hard to read.

If you would leave the box off, the screen would format for all of us...

[LasVegasMac]

"Janet" slumped into a chair and raised a gun to her temple. She couldn’t even hate anymore. For a time after her abortion, that was all she could do — feel a seething, bottomless hatred for her boyfriend, Mike. She hadn’t spoken a word to him since the abortion. A suburban police officer, she fantasized about "annihilating him . . . making him beg for mercy, just as I had in the clinic." Her rage eventually withered, but nothing replaced it — nothing but black emptiness. Janet pulled the trigger.

Sorry folks, this is a blazing, first class, load of crap.

I don't give a rat's a$$ about how bad the piece of sh*t Janet feels. She committed murder.

No where did I read, followed link to check, that she was raped - forced into child birth.

Janet, you sick piece of crap, you were a willing partner in the act of creating life. One or both of you failed to take the appropriate precautions to prevent this. The word is, "responsibllity". You made the decision. You took the action. Now live with it. Unless, of course, you are a flaming demo-liberal that believes you are not responsible for your own actions.

Are we supposed to sympathize with you now? Are we also supposed to believe, as you profess, that this is all Mike's fault??!!!!!

Grow up before you have another sexual relationship.

The real tragedy here, of course, is not Janet and her hurt feelings. The unborn baby.

Eventually, you will have to account for this action. Good luck.

LVM

[LasVegasMac]

"Janet" slumped into a chair and raised a gun to her temple. She couldn’t even hate anymore. For a time after her abortion, that was all she could do — feel a seething, bottomless hatred for her boyfriend, Mike. She hadn’t spoken a word to him since the abortion. A suburban police officer, she fantasized about "annihilating him . . . making him beg for mercy, just as I had in the clinic." Her rage eventually withered, but nothing replaced it — nothing but black emptiness. Janet pulled the trigger.

Sorry folks, this is a blazing, first class, load of crap.

I don't give a rat's a$$ about how bad the piece of sh*t Janet feels. She committed murder.

No where did I read, followed link to check, that she was raped - forced into child birth.

Janet, you sick piece of crap, you were a willing partner in the act of creating life. One or both of you failed to take the appropriate precautions to prevent this. The word is, "responsibllity". You made the decision. You took the action. Now live with it. Unless, of course, you are a flaming demo-liberal that believes you are not responsible for your own actions.

Are we supposed to sympathize with you now? Are we also supposed to believe, as you profess, that this is all Mike's fault??!!!!!

Grow up before you have another sexual relationship.

The real tragedy here, of course, is not Janet and her hurt feelings. The unborn baby.

Eventually, you will have to account for this action. Good luck.

LVM

[LasVegasMac]

"Janet" slumped into a chair and raised a gun to her temple. She couldn’t even hate anymore. For a time after her abortion, that was all she could do — feel a seething, bottomless hatred for her boyfriend, Mike. She hadn’t spoken a word to him since the abortion. A suburban police officer, she fantasized about "annihilating him . . . making him beg for mercy, just as I had in the clinic." Her rage eventually withered, but nothing replaced it — nothing but black emptiness. Janet pulled the trigger.

Sorry folks, this is a blazing, first class, load of crap.

I don't give a rat's a$$ about how bad the piece of sh*t Janet feels. She committed murder.

No where did I read, followed link to check, that she was raped - forced into child birth.

Janet, you sick piece of crap, you were a willing partner in the act of creating life. One or both of you failed to take the appropriate precautions to prevent this. The word is, "responsibllity". You made the decision. You took the action. Now live with it. Unless, of course, you are a flaming demo-liberal that believes you are not responsible for your own actions.

Are we supposed to sympathize with you now? Are we also supposed to believe, as you profess, that this is all Mike's fault??!!!!!

Grow up before you have another sexual relationship.

The real tragedy here, of course, is not Janet and her hurt feelings. The unborn baby.

Eventually, you will have to account for this action. Good luck.

LVM

[LasVegasMac]

sorry for the double post.

LVM

[Askel5]

Thanks for the thread, Remedy.

Excellent and most thoughtful post, ladysusan.

There are many who've bought the agit-prop and don't seem to understand that overturning of Roe is actually a rolling back of government intrusion into and coercion of our lives as well as state-sanctioned homicide directly in comport with GOP strategems of national defense and population control.

They think pro-lifers are advocating some GOP-style War on Drugs police state tactics by which women will be "pregnancy-tested" just as citizens are drug-tested or by which private citizens suspected of dealing in death of the unborn will be subjected to the egregious acts perpetrated "for our own good" or (as in Waco) "for the children" by the DEA and BATF.

Evidently they've never read Kissinger's NSSM-200 (signed by Scowcroft as NSDM-314) and fail to realize how essential is legal abortion to the success of our national population control programs.

But worst of all, they fail to realize -- as do pro-lifers or anyone who's watched the change in a woman who's had an abortion -- that indeed the most cruel and unusual punishment of all is the perpetration of the crime against nature that is the killing of one's own child. The lifetime of wondering not "what if I'd had a child" but "what if I hadn't killed That Child".

I think the embrace of New Age lies and deceipt almost en masse by women serves as stark evidence they seek some sort of salve for their consciences ... some New Order by which to make sense of their Goddess power over the life within their womb or claim some new fecundity in lieu of that which they rejected in ritual application of the abortifacient pills which rendered the fertile womb a killing field and stripped the potency and meaning from sexual relations just as surely as it's stripping the dignity and modesty from women.

I think most agree that the full weight of the law of any just society should brought against the abortionist who effects the homicide of the innocent life.

No one advocates harsh punishment for the woman who, in desperation or rank ignorance and under the influence of a Culture of Death, kills her child. Her act is its own punishment.

[Jeff Chandler]

View Hope & Healing… For years, VirtueMedia has worked in cooperation with the Elliott Institute, P.A.S. Counseling, CPC of Greater Phoenix, Arizona Right to Life, and America's Pregnancy Helpline to offer hope and healing to thousands of young women in Maricopa County who suffer from Post Abortion Syndrome (PAS). PAS is estimated to affect nearly 40 million women around the U.S., about 1 out of every 4. VirtueMedia television and radio commercials provide access to confidential counseling and information via a toll-free help line (1-888-80-Woman at America's Pregnancy Helpline) and Elliot Institute's web site . Thousands of women have found hope, healing and forgiveness from the pains suffered following abortion. Documented suicides have been averted as a result of this ad campaign that has won the Communicators' National Award of Distinction.

[SERE_DOC]

"God didn't pull that trigger, sorry! Still don't buy it. The gun reference is just too, too anti 2A."

May very well be anti-2A but when you spend to much time trying to disprove the hand of God in situations you loose sight of the big picture.

Now before you jump all over the previous I respectfully submit that the story maybe bogus but then again it might be true.

And all those who condem this girl, I respectfully submit "those without sin, cast the first stone" If she is truely repentant for her sin, who are you to condem her.

[null and void]

Simple impertinence does not an argument make.

Please see my post #14.

[Remedy]

Û I'd like to point out that women who have lost their newborns to adoption have nearly identical reactions.Û

Û The lifetime of wondering not "what if I'd had a child" but "what if I hadn't killed That Child". Û

 

 

Testimony of Gianna Jessen

Hearing on H.R. 4292, the "Born-Alive Infants Protection Act of 2000"

House Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution

July 20, 2000

My name is Gianna Jessen. I would like to say thank you for the opportunity to speak today. I count it no small thing to speak the truth. I depend solely on the grace of God to do this. I am 23 years old. I was aborted and I did not die. My biological mother was 7 months pregnant when she went to Planned Parenthood in southern California and they advised her to have a late-term saline abortion.

A saline abortion is a solution of salt saline that is injected into the mothers womb. The baby then gulps the solution, it burns the baby inside and out and then the mother is to deliver a dead baby within 24 hours.

This happened to me! I remained in the solution for approximately 18 hours and was delivered ALIVE on April 6, 1977 at 6:00 am in a California abortion clinic. There were young women in the room who had already been given their injections and were waiting to deliver dead babies. When they saw me they experienced the horror of murder. A nurse called an ambulance, while the abortionist was not yet on duty, and had me transferred to the hospital. I weighed a mere two pounds. I was saved by the sheer power of Jesus Christ.

Ladies and gentleman I should be blind, burned.....I should be dead! And yet, I live! Due to a lack of oxygen supply during the abortion I live with cerebral palsy.

When I was diagnosed with this, all I could do was lie there. "They" said that was all I would ever do! Through prayer and hard work by my foster mother, I was walking at age 31/2 with the help of a walker and leg braces. At that time I was also adopted into my wonderful family. Today I am left only with a slight limp. I no longer have need of a walker or leg braces.

I am so thankful for my Cerebral Palsy. It allows me to really depend on Jesus for everything.

When the freedoms of one group of helpless citizens are infringed upon, such as the unborn, the newborn, the disabled and so called "imperfect," what we do not realize is that our freedoms as a NATION and Individuals are in great peril.

I come today in favor of this Bill, in favor of the Protection of Life. I come to speak on behalf of the infants who have died and for those appointed to death. Learned Hand, a well respected American Jurist (within our own century) said: " The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right; the spirit of liberty is the spirit which seeks to understand the minds of other men and women; the spirit of liberty is the spirit which weighs their interests alongside its own without bias; the spirit of liberty remembers that not even a sparrow falls to earth unheeded; the spirit of liberty is the spirit of Him who, near 2000 years ago, taught mankind that lesson it has never learned, but has never quite forgotten; that there is a kingdom where the least shall be heard and considered side by side with the greatest."

Where is the soul of America?! Members of this committee: where is YOUR heart? How can you deal with the issues of a nation without examining her soul? A murderous spirit will stop at nothing until it has devoured a nation. Psalm 53:1-3 says: "The fool has said in his heart, 'there is no God'; they are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; there is none who does good. God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. Every one of

them has turned aside; they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one."

Adolph Hitler once said: "The receptive ability of the great masses is only very limited, their understanding is small; on the other hand their forgetfulness is great. This being so, all effective propaganda should be limited to a very few points which in turn, should be used as slogans until the very last man is able to imagine what is meant by such words." Today's slogans are: "a woman's right to choose" and "freedom of choice," etcetera.

There was once a man speaking from hell (recorded in Luke 16) who said "I am tormented in this flame." Hell is real. So is Satan, and the same hatred that crucified Jesus 2000 years ago, still resides in the hearts of sinful people today. Why do you think this whole room trembles when I mention the name Jesus Christ? It is because He is REAL! He is able to give grace for repentance and forgiveness to you and to America. We are under the judgement of God - but we can be saved through Christ. Romans 5:8-10 "But God demonstrates his own love towards us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For when we were ENEMIES we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

Death did not prevail over me....and I am so Thankful!!

[null and void]

Moral Question of Abortion is a very well written on-line book.

A few broken links, overall a good reference, well organized, lots of data.

I'm still left with the question when does a soul come into the picture, and the fate of a soul at any given stage in development.

I have personal as well as philosophical interest

Before my beloved son was born we lost 3 pregnancys to miscarrige, one after an untrasound showed a few pixels of a beating heart.

(If you've been through this experience, no explaination is necessary.
If you haven't, none is possible).

Were they really there as people/souls? Where are they now? I'd prefer to think that they tried again and again until they were successfully born, and will live interesting lives. Perhaps my son is the same being after 4 tries? Perhaps they went elsewhere? Having no real basis of comparison would they appreciate Heaven, or resent Hell?

I'm left with my original thesis intact, I can't spot an error in the reasoning, but the conclusion "feels" wrong.

[Remedy]

I just checked the links that I posted and they are working now.

I'm still left with the question when does a soul come into the picture, and the fate of a soul at any given stage in development.

• The Human Rational Soul in the Early Embryo -- by Stephen Heaney, Ph.D. In this essay, Professor Heaney discusses the various theories of "ensoulment" that permeate philosophical (and theological) discussions on abortion.

• A Survey of Arguments for Immediate versus Delayed Animation -- by Scott Sullivan. In this essay, Thomist Philosopher Scott Sullivan critically analyzes the theory of mediate animation.

[null and void]

Thanks for the links. I'm trying to wade through the first one and am beginning to glaze over.

A little deep for this humble engineer.

BBL...

[Fiddlstix]

Bump
To read later

[mil-vet]

Guns don't just GO OFF.

Actually, they CAN "just go off" after, as in this case, an attempted firing - clearly this is a textbook case of a faulty primer. I have seen delays of several minutes on firing ranges, and heard of longer delays from others. This time delay is a bit longer than I have experienced, but it is not unheard of!

Don't let this "red herring" deflect from the FACT of the personal and national tragedy of murdering an unborn child!

[Remedy]

1. Given Free Will, there is no way to insure any given child will select the right path.
2. Therefore, the only way you can insure a soul goes to Heaven is to terminate the pregnancy.
3. No birth, no sin, go to Heaven.

• Did I miss something here?

1. God grants free will
2. Abortion terminates free will
3. Man takes God's place
4. Is Abortion Murder?

[rhema]

BUMP