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Drug Laws as Cultural Lobotomy
Liberty Magazine ^ | 9/1995 | John Dentinger

Posted on 01/26/2003 6:20:50 AM PST by RJCogburn

The first casualty of the war on drugs. Since it is customary in articles about drugs to recount one's personal struggle with the demon, I will begin with a personal anecdote.

My drug addiction began in Wisconsin in the late '60s. I didn't think it was serious at first. I just took a nosefull of the stuff with a high-school chum. Later I increased the dose. I was buying it every three weeks. I didn't know the nasal congestion I suffered was a withdrawal symptom, but I did know the stuff cleared it up. It wasn't until years later, when a doctor told me, that I realized I was addicted.

To Neo-Synephrine. An over-the-counter nasal decongestant which I took for hay fever. What I didn't know about the nose drops was that my friend was taking far more than he needed; and following his lead, so was I. What I needed to protect me from Neo-Synephrine addiction was not laws, but information.

Drug laws keep society from learning anything from the drug use that occurs; they foster lies to fill the silence; and this discredits valid warnings about the real dangers of drugs. This silence and disinformation, this never-ending cultural lobotomy, is the most subtle, the most ignored, and yet the greatest cost of the war on drugs.

Silence and Disinformation My Neo-Synephrine experience coincides with recent findings cited by Arnold Trebach in The Great Drug War: that honest, credible drug education may increase drug use -- but decreases drug abuse. No one claims education would eliminate abuse, but some commonplace examples indicate why it would reduce it: because much abuse is due to ignorance. Many common legal products are allergenic or harmful to a hypersensitive few: allergists often cite sulfites and monosodium glutamate in food, as well as ingredients in Irish Spring soap and Tide laundry detergent. Caffeine is an elusive cause of insomnia, heart palpitations, and other alarming symptoms.

Now, a lot of the use of these products results in needless anxiety, time lost from work, and doctor bills. And how does our government respond to that waste? By requiring warning labels on these products?

No. Rather, it busies itself outlawing drugs, many of whose users are far better-informed of their effects than is the average user of the caffeiniferous Coca-Cola. By subjecting users to a black market, government makes them less informed about, and thus in greater danger from, what they are ingesting. Sometimes it even pollutes the drugs itself: spraying poisonous paraquat on marijuana, as it adulterated alcohol with poisonous methanol during Prohibition.

One need not be in battle fatigues to take pot-shots at the truth; one can be a sort of civil defense worker, like Janet Cooke was when she wrote her Pulitzer-winning fabrications about an "eight-year-old heroin addict." As Thomas Szasz noted, lies on the subject of drugs are so common that if Cooke had not also lied about her academic credentials, she probably would have gotten away with it. Another classic tale told as true came in 1968 from then-Governor Raymond Shafer of Pennsylvania: six college students had gone blind staring at the sun while on LSD. The governor later recanted when his source, another government official, admitted he'd made it up. I mention this old hoax because (a) we all remember its tenacity, and (b) it illustrates the self-fulfilling hysteria about"tbad trips," thereby guaranteeing that first-time LSD users would be more susceptible to them.

I can attest to this personally. In the summer of 1972, I did once what friends had done numerous times: I took LSD. I went into the experience with the wrong attitude, and had a very bad trip. The public hysteria did two monstrous things simultaneously: it made me fear that I had permanently damaged the only asset I had -- my mind -- and it made this unfounded fear something I could not confide to anyone. I finally went to the student health service, which referred me to a psychiatrist, whom I saw once. His answer to my problems: Valium, 10 mg., several times a day.

I had no idea what a high dose this authority had prescribed. One-tenth or one-twentieth of that would have provided a crutch. The prescribed dose, which I took, was an emotional strait-jacket. I needed the plain truth, and I got chemical repression. All of the harm here came not from drugs but from silence and lies. Much the same, I suggest, is true of our culture.

The Trials and Errors of Drug Laws Society advances, in Karl Popper's phrase, by a process of "trial and the elimination of error." Hindering either of these two steps in the name of cost-cutting or risk-aversion does not hamper the commission of error, merely the elimination of error. It disconnects the ratchet of social progress.

For example, the backfiring of the attempt through regulation and tort law to produce a risk-free society is becoming increasingly clear. Had heavier-than-air flight been made even heavier with detailed regulation after the first plane crash, we would not have developed a means of long-distance transportation far safer than any alternative. Transportation would be costlier and riskier, but ten thousand back-page car crashes don't have the impact of one front-page plane crash. And a rat overdosed with cyclamate warrants a headline; extra human deaths from obesity do not. In innumerable areas of life, safety-at-any-price exacts a high price not only in dollars, but also in safety.

The same analysis applies to drugs. Illegal drug "experiments" go on constantly, but we can learn little of or from the good or bad experiences of drug users, since they may be arrested if they talk about them. Celebrities thus arrested may be able to escape prison if they agree to go on the lecture circuit and recant their heresy. In this, our sole advance over the Inquisition is that heretics do not need to be shown the instruments of torture: viz., prison and the press. In any case, the resultant testimony can hardly be considered reliable.

Drug companies have no incentive to invest in developing safer psychotherapeutic or "recreational" drugs, since these would simply be outlawed. The government's hostility to safe drugs was noted by Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw in Life Extension: the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms "forbids the addition of anti-oxidant vitamins such as B-l to booze, although medical experts . . . agree [it] would significantly reduce alcohol-induced brain and liver damage." An even better solution, they note, "would be to develop new recreational drugs which provide the desired alcohol high without the damaging side effects. There is, in fact, such a drug. [It has already been tested, but it] is not FDA approved, and it is not likely to be approved in the foreseeable future."

Likewise, the prescription drug diphenylhydantoin "has been used successfully to allow smokers to quit without withdrawal symptoms," but of course, it is not FDA-approved for that purpose. "In fact," noted Pearson and Shaw, "since smoking is not a disease, the FDA may never approve any treatment, no matter how safe, specifically for the purpose of stopping smoking."

This show of concern for the health of even legal recreational drug users is no less that we could expect from those wonderful folks who let thousands of AIDS and other patients die while awaiting the nirvana of the perfectly effective drug, and the chimera of the perfectly safe one. These examples of costs imposed as savings, of danger and death imposed as safety, could be -- and still are -- multiplied ad infinitum.

The Blinding Success of Drug Laws In particular, the law "protects" us from the effects, both maleficent and beneficent, of coca and cocaine, amphetamines, psychedelic drugs, and cannabis (a legal medicine until 1937). But as Lester Grinspoon and James B. Bakalar, both of Harvard Medical School, note in the Pacific Institute's anthology Dealing with Drugs, all of these have medicinal uses.

To take one example, as recently as 1985, psychotherapists from around the country offered the DEA testimony to the therapeutic efficacy of MDMA, a mild, then-legal psychedelic drug. (The term "psychedelic" may be misleading; MDMA -- unlike alcohol -- does not cause hallucinations, even in substantial overdoses.) The drug, they said, vastly increased the very bases of therapy: motivation, empathy, and depth and extent of communication. Dissolving the fear or embarrassment or inertia associated with new self-insight, the drug helped to break through the sticking points of therapy. Success stories abounded: a woman who was the victim of rape and torture and was still suicidal after six months of ordinary therapy was able to face the past and begin living a normal life again. The positive mental attitude it helped encourage seems to have aided another woman's remission from an otherwise fatal cancer. And so on. Disastrously, however, the drug was nicknamed "Ecstasy," a term so reeking of hedonistic heresy that no product could bear the name and not be outlawed, not even dog food or suppositories.

The medical case for marijuana is even clearer, to the point where even the government can't deny its efficacy in treating nausea, glaucoma, and other conditions.

Rick Morris, a truck driver in Tennessee, lost three-eighths of his body weight while on nauseating chemotherapy. Like many chemotherapy patients, until Morris began smoking marijuana, even the smell of food would cause him to vomit, his attorney said.

Attorney? Oh yes, Morris was convicted in 1988 of possession of marijuana.

Two million Americans suffer the progressive eye disease of glaucoma. An eighth of those have serious vision impairment already, and 7,500 people a year go blind from it. In 1972, Robert C. Randall, aged 24, was told he had glaucoma and could expect to be totally blind in three to five years. He found by chance that smoking marijuana completely restored his eyesight and arrested the progress of his ailment. When he grew these medicinal plants, it was he himself who was arrested. Naïvely, he called federal drug bureaucrats to get permission to use marijuana as medicine -- and found they already knew of its unique value in treating glaucoma, and never bothered to tell the public. After tremendous battles, he won the right to use marijuana (supplied from Uncle Sam's Mississippi pot farm), which the bureaucrats tried to make subject to Randall's conceding to keep quiet about it. He refused to accede to this, and they capitulated. But later the "liberal" Carter White House drug policy chief, Dr. Peter Bourne, threatened to cut off Randall's marijuana supply because he insisted on appearing in the press, telling people the truth about this medicine. In effect, the government repeatedly threatened to blind Randall if he didn't keep his mouth shut.

People are still going blind not because marijuana laws cut off the supply of the drug (tens of millions of people use it, after all), but because they cut off the supply of information. Glaucoma, cancer, and other patients have had to discover this information independently (and criminally). Or not discover it, and go blind or starve to death in retching agony, which all of them would have done if drug laws had been "successful." These millions of American remain, in effect, victims of a gigantic Tuskegee experiment (an experiment in which black males were intentionally denied medical treatment for syphilis for purposes of studying the disease).

The Procrustean Moral Calculus Prohibitionists are starting to concede that their policy has costs. Morton Kondracke, writing in The New Republic, offers a typical interventionist analysis: he estimates the cost of the drug war at a paltry $30 billion -- a third of that for direct enforcement, two-thirds for the cost of crime generated by heroin addicts. But this sort of cost/benefit analysis fudges entries on both sides of the ledger, by techniques including these:

(1) Ignoring the costs of the "Tuskegee experiment" above.

(2) Aggregating costs imposed by people on themselves with costs imposed by people on others. Every life counts the same in this Procrustean moral calculus, the consenting and unconsenting alike. We can see the same shell game when gun control advocates slip suicides into the figures on "gun-related deaths."

Consider what the interventionist does when he cites "productivity loss" as a cost of drugs. If Joe Would-Be-Cokehead were not producing anything in the first place, then his self-destruction would have "zero cost." Thus Joe's very productivity is perversely used as an argument for curtailing his liberty. This approach would argue that if Charles Krauthammer could make more money as a doctor than a political writer, the law should force him to do so.

This leaves us with the one real social cost: accidents, primarily driving under the influence by a small, irresponsible minority of drinkers and other drug users. The idea that we should round up all drug users because of this sounds suspiciously like "There is no such thing as an innocent suspect." Surely this is better dealt with by diverting $10 billion a year worth of zealous narcotics officers into traffic patrols than by attempting preventive detention of all of society.

(3) Ignoring damage to other constitutional rights. When the government can blind its critics lawfully, the First Amendment is a mockery. When the government confiscates putative drug profits (including money intended for attorney's fees) in a "civil" proceeding, due process is mocked, as is effective assistance of counsel. Increasingly obtrusive searches are rubber-stamped in the name of the drug war. Penalties for marijuana sales have often grossly exceeded commonly given penalties for murder. And the list goes on. War is the health of the state, and the drug war is no exception.

(4) Ignoring psychic benefits. The feelings of would-be drug users are given no weight in this scheme, although they are willing to part with money to alter their feelings. This is like saying that one who survived an involuntary game of Russian Roulette had zero loss and one who survived psychotherapy had zero gain. In fact, the psychic benefits of some drugs may be far more than the mere physical pleasure of, say, cocaine.

One of the objections to drugs is that they "cause" some people to lose control over their lives. But in most such cases, I submit, drugs, legal or illegal, are simply the means by which a person carries out his early-life programming for self-destruction. The "cure" is not the removal of a few of many available means to that end, but the teaching of the victim how to change his own programming -- i.e., how to be an autonomous human being instead of a robot. Ironically, there is, as noted above, strong evidence that some illegal drugs would be good for precisely that psychotherapeutic purpose. For vast numbers of responsible would-be users, then, drug laws are not aiding but obstructing self-control.

(5) Ignoring spinoffs. Only when drugs are legal can they give rise to spinoffs benefitting non-users. This is the biggest cost of all, meriting separate discussion.

Spinoffs The entire advance of civilization is a web of "spinoffs," intricately and unpredictably related. Cut off a strand of inquiry, narrow the range of allowable personal experiments, and the damage to the web grows exponentially with time -- and in ways we cannot predict. Thus Friedrich Hayek writes in The Constitution of Liberty, "We shall never get the benefits of freedom, never obtain those unforeseeable new developments for which it provides the opportunity, if it is not also granted where the uses made of it by some do not seem desirable. It is therefore no argument against individual freedom that it is frequently abused."

Let us look at a business analogous to the recreational drug trade: the entertainment industry. If any business could be hamstrung without impairing progress, surely it is this. Let's say, arguendo, that "freedom of entertainment" has been grossly abused -- that 99% of entertainment dollars have gone for mindless rubbish. But let's see what those dollars have financed.

Audiophiles financed the development of magnetic tape, later used in computers; diskettes and hard discs spun off that. The quarters plunked into early video games helped finance Silicon Valley. From the money consumers spent on laser discs there arose CD-Rom storage, which even New Age bookstores use for instant computer access to Books In Print. Couch potatoes in the '50s buying TVs to watch I Love Lucy helped make it possible for millions to have high-quality, inexpensive computer monitors today.

Thus entertainment spinoffs accelerated all advances based on computers. This includes artificial intelligence, whose applications include medical expert systems, aiding doctors with faster and more accurate diagnoses. It also includes the new science of chaos theory, which has been applied to the study of cardiac arrythmia, Parkinson's disease, and similar medical abnormalities.

The hardware and software developed to animate sequences in the Star Wars movies have been adapted for computer-aided design and medical imaging applications. It's a shame radiology departments don't have signs rubbing this in, but the first people whose lives were saved by this technology can thank George Lucas and his fans.

If science fiction has yielded medical spinoffs, it defies credibility that recreational drug research would fail to do likewise.

We can already point to the accidental discovery of marijuana's value fighting nausea and glaucoma. In fact, we can even name one of its non-medical spinoffs: many utilitarian products can be made from the marijuana plant, including an inexpensive, high-grade paper that is far more long-lasting than acid-treated wood pulp. Thus the specific form of cultural brain damage that occurs as many old books disintegrate is one of the continuing legacies of the drug war.

A free society's complex web of information and innovation is one with which we tamper at our peril.

Inventing Danger The reason our culture has evolved the custom of freedom and the concept of individual rights is that in the long run, they work. And the reason they have developed so slowly is that any zealot, well-meaning but without understanding, can point to the short run.

Every single freedom we now take as self-evidently crucial arose in a struggle against those who attacked it as dangerous. Neophobes of Plato's day attacked writing -- as an enemy of memory. Luddites, Gordon Tullock tells us in The Organization of Inquiry, have been with us always: "inventions which simply eased the method of production of existing products were usually frowned upon [by governments]. The fear that labor-saving inventions will result in widespread unemployment [rather than more but different employment] is as old as history."

Here, in the realm of invention, is the paradigm of the mechanism and value of freedom. Very few people personally utilize the right to invent, and in the short run, some people are "harmed" by invention to the extent of having to change employment. Despite these two factors, we not only let people invent things -- we encourage them. We sort out the results in the most callous manner: if they hit the jackpot, we get to use the invention without having taken their risks. If their experiments fail, well, tough for them.

This is the model for the discovery, diffusion, and utilization of knowledge in a free society.

Of course drug use has risks and costs, but only those to bystanders should be curtailed by law. Anything more done to the "social organism" -- any laws and silence and lies -- is not an immune response, but a jolt of curare, a routing to oblivion of the cultural neurons bearing information on which drug use is beneficial and which harmful.

This cultural lobotomy is a cost we should insist be included in the accounting when next the drug warriors trot out their moral calculators.


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1 posted on 01/26/2003 6:20:50 AM PST by RJCogburn
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To: RJCogburn
Bump
2 posted on 01/26/2003 6:34:27 AM PST by ActionNewsBill
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To: RJCogburn
bunch of bull. There's lots of information on drug side effects both on goverment and lay medical sites. It's just that druggies enjoy being high, and don't believe them.

But our society sees "feeling good" as the highest good, and only wants to demonize things like tobacco that cause physical harm.

Things that cause social harm and spiritual destruction are not recognized at all...If I had a dollar for every kid messed up by druggie parents who were "non violent users" who defend legalization, I would be rich.
3 posted on 01/26/2003 6:41:13 AM PST by LadyDoc
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To: LadyDoc
If I had a dollar for every kid messed up by druggie parents who were "non violent users" who defend legalization, I would be rich.

No argument, LD. Proof that the War on Drugs fails.

Any suggestions?

4 posted on 01/26/2003 6:44:09 AM PST by RJCogburn (Yes, it's bold talk......)
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To: RJCogburn
Well said.
5 posted on 01/26/2003 6:57:23 AM PST by THEUPMAN
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To: LadyDoc
Does drug prohibition bring us closer to God?
6 posted on 01/26/2003 7:08:38 AM PST by The FRugitive
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To: LadyDoc
It's just that druggies enjoy being high, and don't believe them.

What's intrinsically wrong with being "high", euphoric or having an alterered state of consciousness? God says not to? Where does He say that?

7 posted on 01/26/2003 7:33:38 AM PST by William Terrell (Advertise in this space - Low rates)
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To: The FRugitive
According to LD (and KC, and Dane, and CJ, and Roscoe, etc. etc.) -- yes.

Sad.

8 posted on 01/26/2003 7:34:30 AM PST by bassmaner (Let's take back the word "liberal" from the commies!!)
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To: jmc813; *Wod_list
bump
9 posted on 01/26/2003 7:35:10 AM PST by bassmaner (Let's take back the word "liberal" from the commies!!)
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To: LadyDoc
bunch of bull.

Yep, the druggies smoke that, too.

Keep up the good work, Doc, although the druggies won't listen to the truth.

10 posted on 01/26/2003 7:39:59 AM PST by A2J (If all else fails, blame it on someone else.)
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To: bassmaner
My take in the present "drug war" is that it gives the Federal, State, and Local governments to much authority (read practical power). Recall, that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Also recall that the United States was getting along fine when one could walk down to the local drug store and buy cocaine for their own personal use (think Coke-Cola really Coca-Cola).

Can one say that the country is better off after the plethora of drug laws has been passed and spottily enforced since then?

11 posted on 01/26/2003 7:47:51 AM PST by Citizen Tom Paine
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To: LadyDoc
But our society sees "feeling good" as the highest good, and only wants to demonize things like tobacco that cause physical harm.

What is wrong with feeling good? Should we ban convertibles, hang gliding and skiing, because they too make some people feel good? Come to think of it, all three of them sometimes cause injury or death.

Why (and, where in the Constitution) is the function of government to prevent positive feelings?

12 posted on 01/26/2003 8:10:07 AM PST by coloradan
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To: LadyDoc
If drugs caused as much harm as claimed our government would stop setting up it's own protected import scams. Just a franchise protection racket hidden in a morality play, wake up.
13 posted on 01/26/2003 8:22:21 AM PST by steve50
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To: A2J
Keep up the good work, Doc, although the druggies won't listen to the truth.

And your 'solution' to the problem is....?

14 posted on 01/26/2003 8:23:55 AM PST by RJCogburn (Yes, it's bold talk......)
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To: RJCogburn
Rooster...

Its sunday morning, I have a headache and am not about to read all of that.

15 posted on 01/26/2003 8:28:16 AM PST by cynicom
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To: cynicom
Its sunday morning, I have a headache and am not about to read all of that.

Ooooh. Sorry to hear that. Take two (legal)aspirin and post me in the morning. ;^)

Meanwhile......

Drug laws keep society from learning anything from the drug use that occurs; they foster lies to fill the silence; and this discredits valid warnings about the real dangers of drugs.

is a shorter version.

16 posted on 01/26/2003 8:33:13 AM PST by RJCogburn (Yes, it's bold talk......)
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To: coloradan
"What is wrong with feeling good?"

If the feeling is based on personal responsibility and that the actions taken while "feeling high" can be contained and really don't impact anyone else nothing is wrong.

I can't say that I know a person under 40 who truly understands personal responsibility there is not much use discussing this. Since the 60's and the perversion of our society with total rights rather than responsibilities of good citizens and I don't know what it would take to get the country "RIGHT AGAIN".

Druggies want drugs and rationalize their use -- man is a rational being -- that is what we do -- but it doesn't make it right.
17 posted on 01/26/2003 8:34:02 AM PST by BeAllYouCanBe (Be All the government allows you to be!)
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To: coloradan
"Why (and, where in the Constitution) is the function of government to prevent positive feelings?"

You ask the correct question.

The answer is the constitution prevents the function of government from interfering or denying what a free citizen wishes to ingest to obtain "positive feelings."

Amendment IX:

"The enumeration in the Contsitution of certain rights, SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED TO DENY OR DISPARAGE OTHERS RETAINED BY THE PEOPLE."

You have "others (rights) retained by the people" to ingest the chemical of your choice, in the quantity of your choice, as long as the exertion of that right stops at the length of your nose.

James Madison, the author of 9th amendment, knew that there was no way to name all of the retained inalienable, God-given rights a free human being has. He also feared, along with all of the anti-federalist, that someday in the future, control freaks would state that the only rights you have are the enumerated rights.

So, James Madison authored the 9th amendment.

It is time for Freepers and all citizens to begin to vigorously re-exert this most important right, contained in the "Bill of Rights," not to be confused with the bill of privileges.

18 posted on 01/26/2003 8:39:12 AM PST by tahiti
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To: LadyDoc
If I had a dollar for every kid messed up by druggie parents who were "non violent users" who defend legalization, I would be rich.

Kids get messed up on drugs because they have addictive vulnerabilities. There is absolutely no difference between the destructive addiction of some of todays youth to illegal drugs, and American Indians addictive use of Alcohol.

The only workable answer is Evolution in Action. Given a few generations Dr. Darwin can weed those out of the population. The only effect of anti drinking anti drug laws and advertising is to stretch out the misery over more generations. We should be encouraging all the unfit to use more chemicals and die, preferably before breeding.

So9

19 posted on 01/26/2003 8:43:18 AM PST by Servant of the Nine (We are the Hegemon. We can do anything we damned well please.)
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To: BeAllYouCanBe
Control freaks want power and rationalize its use -- man is a power monger -- that is what we do -- but it doesn't make it right.

20 posted on 01/26/2003 8:44:09 AM PST by Bob Mc
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To: LadyDoc
Things that cause social harm and spiritual destruction are not recognized at all...If I had a dollar for every kid messed up by druggie parents who were "non violent users" who defend legalization, I would be rich.

What, you mean the WOSD's isn't working ? How can all these people get illegal drugs? I imagine you get more than a dollar for every prescription you write....

I agree some people will never be good parents, druggies or otherwise, should we pass a law outlawing having children unless the parents pass certain state mandated criteria? Such as they can't use tobacco or alcohol, no affairs, contract to stay together until child reaches 18, must provide certain level of income for child, spend x number of hours per week with child, etc...I suspect many of those things also can affect a child's life but I don't see any laws about that now, maybe we should stop the WOSD's and start policing parents, yeah that's the ticket pass a law making the parent's toe the line and be responsible...

21 posted on 01/26/2003 8:46:03 AM PST by rolling_stone
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To: RJCogburn
rooster...

OK OK I went back and read that epistle.

Firstly, having once been addicted to prescription drugs, I have enough knowledge to be scared of them. I did not like not living in my own mind and quit cold turkey.

People that abuse drugs for recreation purposes always have someone to blame, never themselves.

22 posted on 01/26/2003 8:46:50 AM PST by cynicom
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To: Bob Mc
You are correct that power is one of the key desires of men - I made the point that people rationalize about any idea or behavior.

Without some overall guiding principle men are lost in this world looking for power and shirking responsibility.
23 posted on 01/26/2003 9:01:11 AM PST by BeAllYouCanBe (Be All the government allows you to be!)
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To: RJCogburn
Like all large government programs driven by unions, protecting jobs with bureaucracies and private industries as beneficiaries of these programs, they will always justify themselves with the same old argument - that we can not compare apples to oranges. There are too many variables in quality of life arguments (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) and can not possibly be weighed against their hard statistical data that directly justifies their myopic existance.

It's a social disease.
"Officer Krupki, I'm down on my knees as no one wants a fella with a social disease."
West Side Story

24 posted on 01/26/2003 9:29:01 AM PST by Ches
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To: LadyDoc
To follow up on my previous question, how does the "inalienable right ... [to the] pursuit of happiness" clause of the DOI fit in with your contention that "feeling good" is an unworthy goal, or something that should be prohibited?
25 posted on 01/26/2003 9:30:08 AM PST by coloradan
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To: Servant of the Nine
We should be encouraging all the unfit to use more chemicals and die, preferably before breeding.

That's a hardnosed position. But Mother Nature is not kind, fair, loving and sweet. If we refuse to allow natural selection, she will refuse to allow us.

We are the Hegemon. We can do anything we damned well please

Not while Doc Savage and Tarzan are still around to kick ass.

26 posted on 01/26/2003 9:43:02 AM PST by William Terrell (Advertise in this space - Low rates)
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To: Wolfie; vin-one; WindMinstrel; headsonpikes; philman_36; Beach_Babe; jenny65; AUgrad; Xenalyte; ...
WOD Ping
27 posted on 01/26/2003 9:43:44 AM PST by jmc813
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To: LadyDoc
Hello, hello? Would you care to give some indication that you base your thinking on any aspect of objective reality rather than your own prejudices and programing?

Let's not be a hit and run, shall we? You do your position no good by avoiding hard questions.

28 posted on 01/26/2003 9:50:18 AM PST by William Terrell (Advertise in this space - Low rates)
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To: BeAllYouCanBe
"Without some overall guiding principle men are lost in this world looking for power and shirking responsibility."

Our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, our 3 branches of government with checks and balances on each other, our representative form of LIMITED government established by our founding fathers IS the "overall guiding principle".

Unfortunately today, it is completely ignored.

29 posted on 01/26/2003 9:56:56 AM PST by Bob Mc
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To: William Terrell
What's intrinsically wrong with being "high", euphoric or having an alterered state of consciousness? God says not to? Where does He say that?

And how do you reconcile that with the Penatcosts, who experience "The Rapture", where they enter an altered state of mind, speak in tongues, handle poisonous snakes and drink rat poison - in the name of God.

30 posted on 01/26/2003 10:07:46 AM PST by tacticalogic (If two plus two equals four, does to plus to equal for?)
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To: tacticalogic
Another good question for BabyDoc, I mean LadyDoc.

31 posted on 01/26/2003 10:15:56 AM PST by William Terrell (Advertise in this space - Low rates)
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To: Bob Mc
"Our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, "

All based on natural rights that have been given by God -- this is what the Founding Fathers envisioned -- a nation of moral people. We have been given freedom to do what is right not to do what feels good. It is difficult to undo the leftist programing of the last 50-60 years that is now ingrained in society that to be conservative is to be un-American and responsibility can and must be done by legislative bodies.



32 posted on 01/26/2003 10:21:43 AM PST by BeAllYouCanBe (Be All the government allows you to be!)
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To: Servant of the Nine
This is brilliant. I think we should do the same thing with alcoholics. Alcoholics should be offered no treatment for their addition, no counseling for their families and no treatment for the inevitable diseases of the heart, liver and brain that are the result of their abuse of this drug. Right on!
33 posted on 01/26/2003 10:38:20 AM PST by jayef
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To: BeAllYouCanBe
This presumes that smoking pot is an immoral action. I guess you also presuppose that there is a scale on which God measures these things. So to God, a hit of acid is worse than a line of coke, a line of coke is worse than a tab of X, a tab of X is worse than a joint and a joint is worse than a glass of wine. Does that about sum up your moral argument? Do you understand how utterly bankrupt such an argument is?
34 posted on 01/26/2003 10:43:21 AM PST by jayef
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To: jayef
. . . or is the coke worse than the acid? Maybe the X is worse than the coke? I don't know. Biblical references anyone?
35 posted on 01/26/2003 10:44:34 AM PST by jayef
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To: BeAllYouCanBe
" "We have been given freedom to do what is right not to do what feels good."

It is obvious we agree on much, I particularly agree about how many so called "conservatives" are wrong thinking more legislation cam make a more moral people.

But be careful with your statement above. Doing something because it "feels good", even if it is self destructive, is still a right we should have.

I prefer the founding fathers attitude, that you are free to do as you please (even what feels good), as long as you do not violate the equal rights of others.

36 posted on 01/26/2003 10:45:59 AM PST by Bob Mc
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To: The FRugitive
Does drug prohibition bring us closer to God?

Yes, you may say that - as ingesting and inhaling intoxicating substances does not *sharpen* one's senses -

- but rather ingesting and inhaling intoxicating substances *dulls* them -

- putting you at a substantial disadvantage when it comes time to first receive God's message and secondly the subsequent understanding of that message ...

Do you think your ultimate goal as deigned by God is to become stoned at each and every opportunity?

In the Bible the purpose for strong drink *is* mentioned - and it does not condone it it's use for the purpose of keeping oneself in a perpetual state of numbness to life's pain ...

37 posted on 01/26/2003 10:51:29 AM PST by _Jim
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To: jmc813
WOD Ping

Make that an "HoD" Ping -

- as in another "Hyperbole on Drugs" argument ping ...

38 posted on 01/26/2003 10:57:29 AM PST by _Jim
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To: RJCogburn
"Liberty Magazine, the monthly libertarian (classical liberal, or individualist) review of thought, culture and politics." As if we couldn't have guessed by the total amount of bull$hit contained therein.

I got as far as the fifth paragraph -- "honest, credible drug education may increase drug use -- but decreases drug abuse", and thought to myself, "Yeah, that worked for alcohol, didn't it?"

BTW, diphenylhydantoin is an anticonvulsant medicine. Toxicology: Toxic. Human carcinogen, neoplastigen, teratogen, mutagen. Experimental carcinogen. May cause systemic effects. May case reproductive defects.

Personally, I'd rather continue smoking than take this crap to quit. No wonder it's not FDA approved.

39 posted on 01/26/2003 11:00:59 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: RJCogburn
The fair disclosure clause for this piece should read thusly:
The source of this piece is from: Liberty Magazine whose index page states, at the opening:

Liberty Magazine

Liberty Magazine is the web site for Liberty magazine, the monthly libertarian (classical liberal, or individualist) review of thought, culture and politics.


40 posted on 01/26/2003 11:04:43 AM PST by _Jim
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To: _Jim
You're arguing the wrong argument. I'm not going to disagree with you on the point that drug abuse takes one away from God. I agree with that.

My question, however, is does drug prohibition bring anyone closer to God? My question is not 'does preventing drug abuse bring anyone closer to God?' - certainly the answer to that is yes. But those are clearly two seperate issues.
41 posted on 01/26/2003 11:09:40 AM PST by The FRugitive
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To: The FRugitive
My question, however, is does drug prohibition bring anyone closer to God?

Well, then you actually have the wrong argument, as far as I am concerned, since we *don't* actually have a 'drug prohibition' in effect.

We have *controls* in effect. Drugs are availble, when needed and when necessary. It will take a physicians signature to get the stronger 'drugs', but such simple drugs as aspirin and cold/flu aids like NyQuil *are* freely availble over the counter without any 'prohibition' in effect ...

42 posted on 01/26/2003 11:25:27 AM PST by _Jim
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To: robertpaulsen
BTW, diphenylhydantoin is an anticonvulsant medicine. Toxicology: Toxic. Human carcinogen, neoplastigen, teratogen, mutagen. Experimental carcinogen. May cause systemic effects. May case reproductive defects.

Thanks for the pharmacology lesson, Bob.

Fact is, if you are pouring through your PDR, you will find dire warnings for just about all the drugs listed. Read the listing for Zyban, an FDA approved drug for smoking cessation....sounds pretty scary, doesn't it?

Additional fact is that Dilantin, is an effective and frequently used drug for some cardiac arrythmias. It is used in some chronic pain syndromes. There are a lot of 'off-label' uses for it.....as for many drugs.

The FDA does not approve the use of a drug without application for its use, along with lots of data....which means money. Since the patent for Dilantin is long expired, there is no economic benefit to applying for another use.

We can disagree about the War on Drugs but your comments concerning diphenylhydatoin are simply the product of, in the best case, bring uneducated about the facts.

43 posted on 01/26/2003 12:03:55 PM PST by RJCogburn (Yes, it's bold talk......)
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To: _Jim
Right you are. I certainly did not to try to hide the source, as I provided a link.

While the source of any article is of interest and may help with understanding any bias of the writer, it is the ideas in any article, not the source, upon which we should focus, IMO.
44 posted on 01/26/2003 12:08:03 PM PST by RJCogburn (Yes, it's bold talk......)
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To: _Jim
Your dissembling and disingenuousness continues to astound and amaze.

Saying we don't have a drug prohibition in effect, because some drugs are legal or even OTC, is like saying the Nazis weren't racist, because there were some races (for example, Aryans) who were not sent to the gas chambers as a matter of national policy.

Obviously, some drugs are prohibited, and if any are, then there is a prohibition in effect, specifically pertaining to those drugs.

Duh.

45 posted on 01/26/2003 12:10:21 PM PST by coloradan
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To: coloradan
Obviously, some drugs are prohibited,

Which ones - THC perhaps?

Nope. It's availble via prescription (Marinol) ...

Maybe it's more a problem that *your* drug of choice is regulated (which you automaticlly then translate into 'a prohibition against') ...

46 posted on 01/26/2003 12:17:43 PM PST by _Jim
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To: _Jim
Many drugs have no accepted medical use and are prohibited under all circumstances for manufacture, possession, sale, transportation, and use.

According to your own dishonest definition, there was no alcohol "prohibition" in America during the 1920s, because it was still permissible in communion wine.

Is that what you are arguing? (Depending on the meaning of 'is,' no doubt?)

47 posted on 01/26/2003 12:25:15 PM PST by coloradan
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To: _Jim
Come to think of it, there were *some* Jews who weren't gassed to death at all - so who can argue that Nazi Germany had an institutionalized system of racism against Jews?

As I said, your dissembling and disingenuousness continues to astound and amaze.

48 posted on 01/26/2003 12:28:28 PM PST by coloradan
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To: LadyDoc
Why is it that you NEVER want to comment on the part that licensed doctors play in addicting and killing people?

There was an article posted on FR about a year ago that showed that in Florida in 2000( I believe) more people died from prescription drugs than from illegal drugs.

Calling people 'druggies' is simply a convenient way to divert attention from the FAILED WoD to a personal attack on those that realize the extreme hypocracy in the WoD AND those who support it.

49 posted on 01/26/2003 12:45:35 PM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: _Jim
"Hyperbole on Drugs"

Or "Hyperventilating on Drugs"

50 posted on 01/26/2003 1:51:32 PM PST by Roscoe
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