Daley Attacks Your Privacy (Yes, even if you don't live in Illinois)

Illinois State Rifle Association ^ | 1-28-03

[SJackson]

Daley and his gun grabbing goons stepped up their attacks on law-abiding gun owners this week.

In arguments before the U.S. Supreme Court this week, Daley's attorney, Larry Rosenthal, claimed that the public has a right to know who owns firearms.

The Supreme Court will be hearing an appeal of Chicago's suit against the ATF in which Chicago is demanding copies of all 4473s filed since 1992. If Chicago prevails in this suit, it will mean that anyone, including gang banger, gun grabbers, and crooked cops, can get copies of all 4473s filled out at the time a gun is purchased.

[SJackson]

all 4473s filed since 1992 means ALL 4473s, not purchases in Chicago, not in Illinois, but in all 50 states.

Don't worry though, Richie will take good care of them.

[SJackson]

Illinois ping list. If you'd like to be added or removed, please FRMail me.

[SJackson]

Response to Guned from the NRA on the issue

Mike: I sent an email to the NRA, and this is the answer they sent back: (Not happy with "Our Lady Of Peace Act" answer.)

1. A new villain has appeared, its called C.A.G.E. (Chicago Anti-Gun Enforcement unit of Chicago Illinois), and is terrorizing fellow gun owners in that State. This villain stole it's name from Citizens Against Government Erosion, a 2nd Amendment group. This enforcement unit represents the types of lists that were used to create the Genocide of the past century. This is in violation of public law 274, 55 stat 742 passed in 1941. Its also in violation of section 926 of the 1968 gun control act and even section 25.9 (d) of the Brady Law. FIGHT IT!!!

2. Why did the NRA support the "Our Lady Of Peace Act," which strips American citizens of their right to KABA for minor legal indiscretions or if they ever suffered a bout of depression?

Phillip

Here is the NRA's response:

With regard to your concern over the Chicago Anti-Gun Enforcement unit (C.A.G.E), please be assured that NRA is aware of the latest anti-gun activities in Chicago.

Unfortunately, the simple fact is that the current political atmosphere in Illinois leaves gun owners in a very difficult position. That is why we are not only constantly engaged in legislative battles, but in electoral contests as well. It may not happen overnight, but we must, and will, continue our efforts to elect lawmakers who understand and respect the rights of law-abiding gun owners. You can be sure that NRA will continue to move forward with our fight, and we hope you will continue to work with us.

(GUNED- HELLO! WE ARE WAY BEYOND LAWMAKING HERE. PEOPLES HOMES ARE BEING INVADED)

As for your question concerning the "Our Lady of Peace Act," introduced as S. 2826 and H.R. 4757, please know that NRA is supporting this legislation because we support efforts to improve the efficiency of the National Instant Check System (NICS). Under this legislation no additional classes of persons will be prohibited from possessing firearms or make additional information available to the FBI. The "Our Lady of Peace Act" is simply an effort to encourage and aid states in updating the records of individuals currently prohibited under federal law. This legislation is actually an improvement, as it will make more clear exactly who is and who is not prohibited. The fact is that some people who are currently prohibited from purchasing and possessing firearms don't get stopped by NICS because record reporting is not uniform.

(GUNED- HELLO! PLEASE STOP BACKING GUN LAWS!)

In addition, S. 2826 and H.R. 4757 include language calling for a permanent ban on charging a federal fee for background checks, and a way to purge bad records that decrease the effectiveness of the system.

Sincerely,

Rebecca A. Williams

-----Original Message-----
From: Refuse
Sent: Friday, 2003 9:09 AM
To: ILA-Contact
Subject: FW: Contact from NRAHQ web site: Refuse To Be A Victim

[from occupied ga]

Once again, the NRA has show itself to be the largest gun control organization in the USA.

[facedown]

bump

[Sam Cree]

"the public has a right to know who owns firearms."

As always, when you hear the Left using words like "the public, the people or the community," what they really mean is "the state."

[Marauder]

What happened to the "pledge" that no firearm acquisition records, or 4473s, would be retained after 90 days?
Did I imagine that?

[556x45]

A concrete example of how registration leads to confiscation. Once they get the 4473's then disarmament can be completed. Daley's tactics are not unlike those used by the Nazis to disarm the German people. Don't be lulled to sleep, this is coming to your region soon. In the end the govt will make sure only their people and approved groups have guns. What are you going to do then?

[556x45]

The 90 day 'pledge' applies only the NICS records. The 4473s have a long life. The dealer keeps them some number of years (20 I think). If he goes out of business during that time they must be turned over to the ATF along with his bound book. The ATF then uses them in its illegal gun registry. The ATF is primarily a criminal oganization funded by your tax dollars and condoned by the Congress.

Interesting factoid: Last year the ATF increased its number of agents in my state by 4 or 5 (about doubling the number of agents). The reason given was to work on gun related crimes. Not too many months later a govt report indicated that my home state had virtually no gun crime. So, what are they doing????

[from occupied ga]

. Daley's tactics are not unlike those used by the Nazis to disarm the German people.

Exactly like I should say

Don't be lulled to sleep, this is coming to your region soon. In the end the govt will make sure only their people and approved groups have guns. What are you going to do then?

By then it will be too late to do anything except remember that Arbeit Macht Frei.

In Chicago it is too late for anything except armed citizen response; however, I don't see that happening - not now, not anytime soon. The disarmed and defenseless peasants in Chicago apparently are quite satisfied to be disarmed and defenseless peasants. The Chicago Einsatzgruppen Kommandos who are going around violating the constitution seem to like their work. (I suppose that the SS Einsatzgruppen in WWII liked their work too) The NRA is happy that gun laws are being enforced. The only dissenters are a few obsolete individuals who worry about irrelevant things like freedom and individual rights. I'm sure that the press will be happy to report that they were summarily executed killed resisting arrest as sooner or later they will be.

[hgro]

Dick Daley, a supporter of the un-indicted crook George Ryan who gathered his campaign money from the bodies of dead children, has a corrupt police force, a corrupt political organization and a choke hold on Chicago.

[556x45]

Yes, my thoughts exactly...why is there no armed resistance to this. Why are there public deomstrations in the streets? Its sad b/c once its a done deal its too late and theres no going back. I think though that despite living here most Americans would be just as at home in Europe. They think like peasants and prefer that way of life. Its always been that way really.

[asformeandformyhouse]

In Chicago it is too late for anything except armed citizen response;

The only other option is for all freedom-loving individuals to abandon states such as Mass, Illinois and California. Vote with your feet, so to speak. I've often wondered how and why any conservatives remain in a state such as California, and that if all conservatives left the state for more freedom-loving states, the California economy will collapse. The only way to get back the rights of the state are to demand them through the electorate. At least then if the confiscation starts, all of the gun owners will be in larger clusters and can better resist if armed response finally becomes necessary. Just my opinion.

[BenR2]

Ping

(And you wonder some of us are disappointed in the NRA?)

Read this article -- and then read the posts that follow.

[SJackson]

What happened to the "pledge" that no firearm acquisition records, or 4473s, would be retained after 90 days? Did I imagine that?

Actually it's more than a pledge, it's the law, which is routinely violated.

If I'm not mistaken, this lawsuit started with Chicago's practice of compiling the names of multiple handgun purchasers (2 handgun purchases within a week, form 3310.4) from throughout the US, for the "purpose" of monitoring possible handgun owners moving to Chicago (handguns are essentially illegal in Chicago), since there was no prohibition on retaining that form.

Obviously Richie has raised his sights. This would essentially establish a national firearms ownership database.

[SJackson]

Don't be lulled to sleep, this is coming to your region soon.

Actually it's coming now. The Chicago purchaser database, multiple purchases now but this case could change that, is national in scope.

The Mayor has to know if you own a firearm just in case you decide to move to Chicago one day. The courts upheld this locally.

[from occupied ga]

The only other option is for all freedom-loving individuals to abandon states such as Mass, Illinois and California

I guess that people don't like to be driven out of what they consider to be their homes. They put up with one small loss of freedom after another - not anything too big all at once mind you. Incrementalism is a very successful tactic for totalitarian governments like Nazi Germany and the Chicago police state.

I keep waiting for the new stories saying that the police refused to confiscate someone's firearms because that would be unconstitutional. All I hear is silence. Where are all of the posters who insist that the police are here to protect us. For that matter where are the police posters - I know there are a few on this forum - who say that they'd never follow such a blatantly unamerican order.

[SJackson]

For anyone who's interested in the background of the case. Please note the US Government joins with the NRA in opposing Daley.

============================================

United States Department of the Treasury, ATF Bureau v. City of Chicago, IL
No. 02-322

Subject:

Freedom of Information Act, Firearms, Privacy

Question:

This case involves the application of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), 5 U.S.C. 552, to two computer databases maintained by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). Those databases document (a) the tracing of firearms believed to be involved in crimes (the Trace Database), and (b) information provided by licensed dealers regarding multiple sales of handguns (the Multiple Sales Database). The questions presented are as follows:


1. Whether individual names and addresses in the Trace Database and the Multiple Sales Database are exempt from compelled disclosure under FOIA Exemption 7(C), 5 U.S.C. § 552(b)(7)(C), which encompasses "records or information compiled for law enforcement purposes" when the production of such records "could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy."
   
   
2. Whether various categories of information contained in the Trace Database are protected from disclosure under FOIA Exemption 7(A), 5 U.S.C. § 552(b)(7)(A), which encompasses law enforcement records when the production of such records "could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings."

Decisions:

• U.S. Court of Appeals - 7th Circuit, Filed: April 25, 2002
• United States Supreme Court, Cert. Granted: November 12, 2002

Resources:

• Docket Sheet From the U.S. Supreme Court.
• Northwestern University - Medill School of Journalism: On the Docket

Briefs:

Parties:
• Petitioner (Petition) [PDF] [RTF] [TEXT]
• Petitioner - Appendix (Petition) [PDF] [RTF] [TEXT]

======================================================

Treasury Dept., etc. v. Chicago
02-0322

Appealed From: 7th Circuit Court of Appeals (287 F.3d 628)

Oral Argument: March 4, 2003

Opinion Issued:

Subject: Freedom of information Act exemptions, gun records

Question(s) presented: (1) Whether individual names and addresses in the Trace Database, (the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' (ATF's) tracing of firearms believed to be involved in crimes) and in the Multiple Sales Database (information provided to ATF by licensed dealers regarding multiple sales of handguns) are exempt from compelled disclosure under Exemption 7(C), 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(7)(C) of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), which encompasses "records or information compiled for law enforcement purposes" when the production of such records "could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy." (2) Whether various categories of information contained in the Trace Database are protected from disclosure under FOIA Exemption 7(A), 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(7)(A), which encompasses law enforcement records when the production of such records "could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings."

In 1998, the City of Chicago became the first city in the nation to claim gun manufacturers, distributors and dealers were creating a public nuisance by selling handguns to the city’s residents.

The city filed a lawsuit seeking $433 million in Cook County Circuit Court, alleging that the area’s gun industry created a public nuisance when it intentionally interfered with the city’s ban on handguns by marketing and distributing guns to street gangs and criminals in Chicago.

To prove that gun manufacturers and dealers knowingly created a public nuisance, the city requested data from 1992 to the present from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms’ (ATF), which has records of 1.3 million guns in the nation.

The city’s request was made under the Freedom of Information Act, which requires government agencies to release public records when outsiders, individuals or the city of Chicago, formally request them.

Its request, made on March 3, 2000, asked the ATF to provide it with records from the bureau’s trace and multiple sales databases.

The trace database contains information about any weapon law enforcement officers recover from a crime scene. When a law enforcement agency finds a weapon at a crime scene, the agency contacts the ATF and requests a trace on that weapon. Using the weapon’s serial number, the ATF contacts the weapons’ manufacturer and connects the weapon to its distributor, dealer and current owner.

The multiple sales database contains information gun dealers provide the ATF when a non-licensed individual purchases more than one gun from the same dealer within a five-day period.

Five days after Chicago requested the data, the ATF gave the city some, but not all, of the information from its databases. The trace data was only for the Chicago area -- not the entire nation, and the multiple sales data did not cover the entire time period requested.

The ATF also withheld all the names and addresses of manufacturers, dealers, and purchasers; crime scene locations; gun serial numbers and sale dates from both the databases.

Jennifer Hoyle, a spokeswoman for the Chicago, said the small amount of information from the ATF showed a disproportionate number of gun manufacturers, distributors and dealer were selling crime guns in the Chicago area. Hoyle said the city wanted to enhance its lawsuit by proving a similar national pattern.

When the agency refused to provide Chicago with remaining information from its databases, the city went to court. On June 7, 2000, Chicago filed suit against the ATF in federal court in Chicago, claiming the agency must disclose all of its records, in accordance with the FOIA.

In response, the ATF said the agency’s policy was to withhold certain information because that information was exempt under the FOIA. The ATF claimed releasing names and addresses from the trace and multiple sales databases would violate gun owners’ privacy and would interfere with ongoing criminal investigations.

On March 6, 2001, the District Court ruled in favor of the City of Chicago, concluding that none of the FOIA exemptions allowed ATF to withhold the data. The judge noted that in the alternative, even if the identity of specific individuals or weapons falls within the scope of any FOIA exemption, that information could be separated from the remainder of the records and ATF could easily delete or encrypt any sensitive portions.

"[The] FOIA requires full disclosure of all requested data to the City because ATF failed to satisfy its burden to demonstrate that the requested information was properly withheld under the exemptions," U.S. District Judge George Lindberg ruled. He rejected ATF’s argument that the release of the release of names and addresses of gun owners would violate their privacy rights protected under the act.

Lindberg also said the ATF failed to prove that releasing names and addresses could interfere with ongoing criminal investigations. "To overcome the presumption of disclosure, ATF must present more than the double hypothetical possibility that an enforcement proceeding may be underway, and that releasing the requested information may interfere with that enforcement proceeding."

On April 25, 2002, a 7th Circuit Court of Appeals panel unanimously affirmed. Judge William Bauer reiterated much of the district court’s reasoning in his opinion.

The appeals court agreed that releasing the names and addresses from the databases was not a violation of privacy.

"It is well-established that one does not possess any privacy interest in the purchase of a firearm," Bauer wrote.

The appeals court also decided that the public’s right to the ATF’s records was another reason why the agency had to release its records. "The public’s interest in disclosure is compelling. Inherent in the City’s request for the records is the public’s interest in the ATF’s performance… The effectiveness of ATF’s performance impacts the City’s interest in preventing illegal handgun trafficking and preserving the integrity of Chicago’s gun control ordinances."

Finally, the appeals court said "ATF’s arguments that the premature release of this data might interfere with investigations, threaten the safety of law officers, result in the intimidation of witnesses, or inform a criminal that law enforcement is on his trail are based solely on speculation."

The U.S. appealed to U.S. Supreme Court on behalf of the U.S. Treasury Department, the federal department that oversees ATF, arguing that the compelled release of names and addresses "would significantly intrude upon the privacy of hundreds of thousands of individuals - including firearms purchasers, potential witnesses to crime, and others - without meaningfully assisting the public to evaluate the conduct of the federal government."

The National Rifle Association and the Fraternal Order of Police submitted friend of the court briefs on behalf of the United States.

On Nov. 12, 2002, the U.S. Supreme Court accepted review of the case.

Attorneys in this case:
For Department of the Treasury, etc.:
THEODORE B. OLSON
Solicitor General, Counsel of Record
ROBERT D. MCCALLUM, JR.
Assistant Attorney General
EDWIN S. KNEEDLER
Deputy Solicitor General
MALCOLM L. STEWART
Assistant to the Solicitor General
LEONARD SCHAITMAN
STEVEN I. FRANK
WENDY M. KEATS
Attorneys

Department of Justice
Washington, D.C. 20530-0001
(202) 514-2217

For Chicago:
Lawrence Rosenthal
Office of the Corporation Counsel
City Hall, #600
121 North LaSalle
Chicago, IL 60602
312-744-5337

Other Attorneys:
For National Rifle Association of America, Inc.:
Stephen P. Halbrook
10560 Main Street
Suite 404
Fairfax, VA 22030
703-352-7276

For Fraternal Order of Police:
Larry H. James
Crabbe Brown James
500 South Front St., #1200
Columbus, OH 43215
614-228-5511

(This brief written by Corey Simpson)

[logic101.net]

Sure, they PROMISED US! Just like many years ago when they passed the first manditory seat belt laws they PROMISED US that not wearing a seat belt would NEVER be a resason for a driver to be pulled over!

Don't tell me you believed them when they PROMISED US that these records would be destroyed! I didn't believe the seat belt promise, and this was when I was too young to drive!

MARK A SITY
http://www.logic101.net/