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America will continue to bleed jobs

Posted on 02/01/2003 11:27:51 PM PST by FightingForFreedom

Wages will not equalize between U.S. and foreign countries for a very long time, if ever. The problem is supply differences. The 100 million or so American workers are vastly outnumbered by the potential number of Chinese, Indian, and other developing nation's manufacturing and knowledge workers. The standard of living differential is also too great. The balancing act for U.S. and multi-national businesses that are outsourcing our jobs is to make sure they don't kill the golden goose (the American consumer) before they've generated an even bigger goose to take to slaughter in China, India, and other targeted markets. Remember, producing cheaply means nothing if there's nobody to buy the products. And no one has been as well-trained as the American consumer to buy, buy, buy, no matter how much in debt one becomes! As a software engineer, I've seen this problem coming for at least 5 years now, but it was well masked by the artificial high-tech bubble through March 2000. I'm not sure that there is an answer at this point -- the genie is out of the bag, so to speak. Once one company in an industry has convinced the govt to open a market in one undesirable country or other, all other companies with which it competes are forced to do the same. Bottling up the genie is notoriously difficult.


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Business/Economy; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government
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To: Torie
In case of a major war, we will be in one helluva shape without heavy industries such as refineries. We won WWII because of our far superior industrial production, not military genius.
201 posted on 02/02/2003 10:27:19 PM PST by BnBlFlag
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To: BnBlFlag
Not really and we were on WAR TIME production cycles.
202 posted on 02/02/2003 11:42:24 PM PST by nopardons
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To: Torie
Many of the bio and pharmaceutical research companies are locating around New York, Boston, and the San Francisco areas. Why would they want to go to areas with such high costs of living, dense populations, traffic jams and high taxes? It's just something I've wondered about.
203 posted on 02/03/2003 1:48:57 AM PST by DBtoo
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To: nopardons
Torie is a very knowledgebble man. You should pay attention to him and others who know far more than you do.

Me DBtoo. Me stupid.

204 posted on 02/03/2003 2:10:23 AM PST by DBtoo
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To: DBtoo
No, dear, not " stupid " ; just not well read enough. Expanding what you know can cure your problem. :-)
205 posted on 02/03/2003 2:15:44 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
Where did I say "KEEPING UP WITH THE JONESES"?
206 posted on 02/03/2003 2:20:19 AM PST by DBtoo
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To: Torie
On Monday night I went to Frontier Pies for dinner. On Tuesday afternoon I passed the Frontier Pies restaurant. The sign said, "We are now closed. Thanks for 19 wonderful years Pocatello". The same basic sign text that the people at "BMC West Lumber" and "Ponderosa Paint" recently used. Frontier Pies doesn't have much competition. Their main flaw was high staff turnover and slow service. It's not a good sign when moderate size retail and chain store restaurants can't keep the doors open.
207 posted on 02/03/2003 11:32:56 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: 1tin_soldier
Not all of us agree on this issue, because some of us have been replaced by cheaper workers, and some of us have not yet been replaced.

Those here pretending to advocate "free trade", are only advocating "free trade" of 5 or 10 percent of our economy/jobs - they dont want their "own job" to be taken by a foreigner. Why not? if a foreigner can do it cheaper?

Why not replace "all" americans with immigrants or by out sourcing to foreign countries?

I cant think of any job now held by an american that cannot be done by a foreigner(except the president), either here, or out sourced. The cost savings would be tremendous if every current american worker was replaced by a cheaper foreign one. There are more than enough asians, latins, and africans to replace every single american still holding a job at an artificial high wage.

If anyone advocates free trade, then they cant disagree with 100% free trade.

208 posted on 02/07/2003 9:45:27 AM PST by waterstraat
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To: BnBlFlag
In case of a major war, we will be in one helluva shape without heavy industries such as refineries. We won WWII because of our far superior industrial production, not military genius.

Yes, both the soviet union and american out-produced and outmanned the Germans. China will soon out produce and out man america.

You are focusing too much on the outcome of that war, and you are ignoring the "positive aspects of free trade and cheap labor" which the germans enjoyed.

You are overlooking the fact that the germans in ww2 produced many goods with a very cheap labor source thru their slave camps, and in economic theory, was better off than either america or the soviet union in the long run. The germans actually produced many goods from their slave labor campes at a far cheaper price than the americans could produce them by using american workers in american factories.

209 posted on 02/07/2003 9:58:35 AM PST by waterstraat
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To: waterstraat
And when all U.S. jobs are out-sourced across our borders, with what would we purchase these goods and services?

Markets (when free) seek a level much like water. If I fill a glass half full of water, what is the chance that all the water would be on one side of the glass? The same chance as your economic model has of becoming a reality. The "loss of jobs" you point to as a crisis would certainly be curtailed (by the market) when, on balance, displaced workers become unable to find more productive (read: more highly valued) work than they had prior to their job being exported; as this would create a net loss to our economy.

Shall I assume you would petition our rulers to ban the creation of all labor-saving devices on the grounds that they cost jobs? If not, why? Also, would your state be better off if it imposed a tariff on all goods imported from other states? If not, why?

210 posted on 02/07/2003 5:49:29 PM PST by 1tin_soldier
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To: nopardons
And mine.......... ;-)

Ping me anytime you find yourself surrounded by "fair" marketeers.
211 posted on 02/07/2003 6:13:34 PM PST by 1tin_soldier
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To: FightingForFreedom
United States ensures:

A. Property Rights
B. Knowledge Capital
C. Military might to ensure that our assets around the world is secure
D. Engineering knowledge unmatched
E. Scientific knowledge unmatched
F. Soft Sciences unmatched
G. Educated Consumers
F. Etcetera, etcetera

So let these foriegn nations build plastic containers and toys; haven't you ever heard of outsourcing??
212 posted on 02/07/2003 6:21:25 PM PST by Porterville
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To: 1tin_soldier
The "loss of jobs" you point to as a crisis would certainly be curtailed (by the market) when, on balance, displaced workers become unable to find more productive (read: more highly valued) work than they had prior to their job being exported; as this would create a net loss to our economy.

The net loss to "our" economy is not important in a "global" economy. As long as some one buys the goods the jobs will naturally go to the lowest paid worker, therefore your analysis that the job loss will stop simply does not make sense.

213 posted on 02/07/2003 6:28:40 PM PST by blueriver
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To: DBtoo
It seems to me that greed has gotten out of hand with the big multi-national companies, and America will never again see the standard of living it once had. Pat Buchanan was so right on that issue. We're all going to be a little poorer from now on. Even those of us with stocks are seeing them rapidly devalue.

Good post. And I tend to agree.

214 posted on 02/07/2003 6:35:59 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Torie
The screed is close to incoherent, and has almost no nexus to anything to do with economic reality or theory. It has echoes of a dead German philosopher who wrote books in England of massive malignant influence that have since been totally discredited.

Huh? You mean most of us are just imagining all of this down turning and lower standard of living?

215 posted on 02/07/2003 6:37:41 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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Comment #216 Removed by Moderator

To: Motherbear
I addressed that point in some detail in a later post on this thread. I trust you will find it, and if not, and are interested, will inquire where it is.
217 posted on 02/07/2003 6:45:27 PM PST by Torie
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To: Joe Hadenuf
Read the whole thread and get back to me. I think I addressed all of this in some detail.
218 posted on 02/07/2003 6:46:13 PM PST by Torie
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To: Joe Hadenuf
Lower standard of living?? Yesterday I drank a bottle of wine from france (with a small "f") ate pesto from Monterey, bought $100 of dollars worth of close for $60 bucks, and $100 pair for $30. I eat sleep and drink like a king and I don't make much money. America has obese epidemic and an unemployment rate of %6. If this is not the land of milk and honey what is??? If you can't make the doe learn a trade, try truck driving it pays 40-50 grand a year, or stucco or masonry or build furniture or roofing, or fishing or real estate or finance or medical supplies salesman or go get your law degree or teaching degree. What planet are you from???? Grow up and get to work!!!
219 posted on 02/07/2003 6:50:53 PM PST by Porterville
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To: nopardons
Just today, in the N.Y. Post, there was an entire page article, about the living standards of today and just 30 years ago. More people have telephones, T.V.s, VCR, two story houses, 2 1/2 bathrooms, or more, in their homes, and on and on and on. If opne looks back farther, say 50 or 60 years, the differences, for the BETTER, are remarkable and astounding.

And their debt ratio is through the roof of that two story house. A stunning fact, is that most working class folks are in debt more than ever in history. Pay check pay check, are razor fine, economic line.

220 posted on 02/07/2003 6:52:31 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Joe Hadenuf
Cyclical Markets, down turn in the early eighties down turn in the mid eighties down turn in the early nineties down turn now. Cyclic cyclic cyclic... expansion and contraction, push the limits clear the inventory, figure out what worked what didn't worked; push forward again, contract again, regroup again.
221 posted on 02/07/2003 6:55:18 PM PST by Porterville
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To: Joe Hadenuf
Good debt or bad debt???

More debt than ever like student loans??? Mortgages??? More people going to college than ever and more people buying houses than ever, of course there is more debt because they are making their money work with investments.
222 posted on 02/07/2003 6:58:33 PM PST by Porterville
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To: Porterville
What planet are you from???? Grow up and get to work!!!

No need to get nasty with Joe. Joe will bite back. Hard.

If this is not the land of milk and honey what is???

No mistake, you are correct, America is still, currently the best and highest standard of living, but in my opinion is is not getting any better or improving.

Look no further than many of our great cities. Many of them now resemble 3rd world countries, with senseless murder zones and huge areas that look like the have been completely abandoned. Many of our states are now operating in the red and with shrinking tax bases etc.

This is just my observations from traveling all over this country.

223 posted on 02/07/2003 7:02:31 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Porterville
Cyclic cyclic cyclic

Things don't last forever. Sometimes cycles end.

224 posted on 02/07/2003 7:04:05 PM PST by blueriver
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To: Porterville
More people going to college than ever and more people buying houses than ever, of course there is more debt because they are making their money work with investments.

Oh like the stock market? LOL! I would rather juggle chain saws than deal in the market.

225 posted on 02/07/2003 7:04:37 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Joe Hadenuf
By a house, go to school, both are investments.
226 posted on 02/07/2003 7:08:30 PM PST by Porterville
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To: Porterville
Actually I will agree with that, as real-estate seems to be the final investment frontier for now. It seems that can't be outsourced. Lets hope it's not the next one in line for the high dive. But since I am not planning on selling, its not a concern of mine.
227 posted on 02/07/2003 7:14:31 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Porterville
go to school, both are investments

Going to school is not a guaranteed investment. There are millions of college educated individuals in every country. Many of them willing to work at wages below what a person makes at Burger King.

228 posted on 02/07/2003 7:15:20 PM PST by blueriver
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To: Porterville
Cyclic cyclic cyclic... expansion and contraction, push the limits clear the inventory, figure out what worked what didn't worked; push forward again, contract again, regroup again.

We shall see. I am just curious, what do you think will bring the economy back?

229 posted on 02/07/2003 7:17:09 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: 1tin_soldier
And when all U.S. jobs are out-sourced across our borders, with what would we purchase these goods and services?

Markets (when free) seek a level much like water. If I fill a glass half full of water, what is the chance that all the water would be on one side of the glass? The same chance as your economic model has of becoming a reality. The "loss of jobs" you point to as a crisis would certainly be curtailed (by the market) when, on balance, displaced workers become unable to find more productive (read: more highly valued) work than they had prior to their job being exported; as this would create a net loss to our economy.

Shall I assume you would petition our rulers to ban the creation of all labor-saving devices on the grounds that they cost jobs? If not, why? Also, would your state be better off if it imposed a tariff on all goods imported from other states? If not, why?

If someone believes in free trade, then they should believe in it 100% - that means "all" jobs.

Free traders believe that all wages should settle at the "world price" of labor.

Since no american individual would work at the "world free trade price" of labor, no american would need to work anymore. United States government assistance and welfare is higher than the world price of labor. It would be stupid for any american to hold a job at the wage level of chinese peasants, chinese doctors, chinese lawyers, etc.

We would purchase goods and services with welfare checks.

The american corporations, which would be making gobs of money thru cheap labor, would ultimately pay the entire income tax for the funding of the social programs.

230 posted on 02/07/2003 7:35:19 PM PST by waterstraat
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To: blueriver
Business, finance, engineering, science, writing, computers, trades like trucking etc etc. It is always a great investment unless it is taken frivolously but even drama majors are needed as teachers.
231 posted on 02/07/2003 7:39:02 PM PST by Porterville
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To: 1tin_soldier
Also, would your state be better off if it imposed a tariff on all goods imported from other states? If not, why?

Someone already proposed a 10% tarriff on all goods produced in other countries, along giving those all revenues from the 10% tarriff directly to american citizens. Seems workable to me, or maybe 20%. That is a nice check for each citizen, maybe no need for most citizens to work depending on how much we take in from the tarriff.

232 posted on 02/07/2003 7:39:23 PM PST by waterstraat
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To: Joe Hadenuf
1. Cleaning up the Middle East
2. Securing American assets from potential terrorist
3. Second phase of technological revolution, which includes medical, micro technologies and alternative energies, as well as real time stock and inventory prices. (For example the real time value of toilette paper across the region)
4.Raytheon and GE getting fresh reorders for tomahawks and antimissile defense systems
5. Reelection of GWB
233 posted on 02/07/2003 7:46:40 PM PST by Porterville
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To: Porterville
Those points you made for an economic upswing seem pretty war dependent.

I guess that couldn't hurt *this* economy, as long as things go smooth on the front.

234 posted on 02/07/2003 7:51:35 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Joe Hadenuf
Manily it is making sure that we are able to protect what is ours around the world, we have to proove that we defend and gaurantee our world assets.
235 posted on 02/07/2003 7:54:53 PM PST by Porterville
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To: Porterville
That's fine. I'm just not sure what assets we have in Iraq. Maybe in the end, it will be their oil.
236 posted on 02/07/2003 8:00:38 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: waterstraat
Free traders believe that all wages should settle at the "world price" of labor.

False. Free traders believe that all wages should settle at that price agreed upon by individual workers and individual employers.

237 posted on 02/07/2003 9:08:42 PM PST by 1tin_soldier
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To: FITZ
Good point.
238 posted on 02/08/2003 2:24:32 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Porterville
Business, finance, engineering, science, writing, computers, trades like trucking etc etc. It is always a great investment unless it is taken frivolously but even drama majors are needed as teachers.

In order to teach in America one need to get a teaching certificate. I can tell you that there are many new graduates in engineering that are not able to get jobs in their field. There is a significant amount of debt incurred in getting a degree in a profession. A few years ago it was unheard of that a college educated person would be unemployed. This has changed. Having a college education is no longer a guaranteed ticket to a job or a career. These are the facts as they exist today.

239 posted on 02/09/2003 7:28:10 AM PST by blueriver
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To: FightingForFreedom
The 100 million or so American workers are vastly outnumbered by the potential number of Chinese, Indian, and other developing nation's manufacturing and knowledge workers. The standard of living differential is also too great.

It is not so much as "stabdard of living" but cost of living. In India 10K a year can give you a comfortable life while in America 10K is barely enough for one person.

It is not that American workers are spoiled or greedy. It will take time before standards/living costs adjust to the wages.

240 posted on 02/15/2003 1:07:31 PM PST by A. Pole
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