NASA news conference~~~ Live Thread

MSNBC | 1-05-03 | Dog

[Moonman62]

I wonder why did you even care to listen? As your post tell us, you already know everything there is to know. You have already solved the whole thing!

The only things I do know for sure is the the Columbia broke up on reentry, and that NASA didn't consider any options to identify damage, even though they knew this would be the most stressful reentry in the history of the program. (And Dittemore did come out with a defeatist excuse during his forst press conference.)

[DoughtyOne]

Yesterday morning Dettemore stated that NASA engineers may have underestimated the damage from the insullation. Do you think? Folks, I think NASA has some splainin to do, so let's not get too hot under the collar.

[freepersup]

Appreciate the tip- I'll check it out (ice conspirator)

[bvw]

You got some hot bogeys on your tail. You can outrun them, they've no real burn in 'em.

[DoughtyOne]

No problem.

[Moonman62]

Furthermore, assuming their information is right, something else happened to cause the failure. That'll come out in time. Who knows? Maybe it was the impact. If so, we'll find out.

I agree, there is the possibilty that the impact during launch didn't cause the failure. And I wouldn't be so critical if Dittemore hadn't made his defeatist statement during the first press conference. But considering what is known for sure, they should have made telescopic observations. No psychic powers required.

[fooman]

Thats what I am thinking. 80 secs into the flight it would be cold up there, not to mention the high humidity and a tank filled liquid hydrogen.

[HairOfTheDog]

NASA didn't consider any options

That is exactly what they did do. That is what they discussed at length and came to a conclusion about.

You are expecting them to know much more at the time about the risk than they could have known. I believe them when they say they had no reason to think there was anything severe wrong or that the incident during the launch was anything worse than they had seen before. Try to absorb that.

But lets just run with "your way" for a minute (that you mention in 126). What telescope was available that could have filmed or looked at the underside of the shuttle at a high enough resolution to see anything?

[Rockitz]

Everything at this point is supposition- even any opening shots by the so-called ice experts. After Challenger, don't you think that those at NASA might be in CYA mode right now. I would hold your opinion on the validity of my premise until independent investigators, like myself, get involved. Data and extensive analysis will determine the root cause.

[Frank_Discussion]

You aren't listening to what's being said by the man, not nearly closely enough.

His defeatist statement relies on the bare and unfortunate fact that repairing the tiles in orbit isn't possible. The materials involved don't bond correctly in vacuum, and the difficult or impossible accessability of the possible damage would result in more damage to surrounding tiles. And this assumes they percieved a problem and looked at it remotely.

However, they didn't look because the experience of 100+ flights and ground testing and modeling and knowledge of physics told them that there should not be a problem. Its the bullet you don't see that gets you. Especially if it's the only one fired at you.

Beyond all of this, indications are actually pointing them away from wing damage anyway, or at least it's position as prime suspect is diminishing. With Challenger, in the early days/weeks of it's investigation, they were "cock sure" that the Space Shuttle Main Engines (SSME's) had exploded. Later, this obviously proved to be the wrong path, for a number of sad reasons.

The Columbia team is trying to avert the sins of the past, as far as mishap investigation shows.

[sonofatpatcher2]

Re: And Dittemore did come out with a defeatist excuse during his forst press conference...

...his forst press conference?

Are you Moe, Larry or Curly?

In the first press conference, all the NASA folk were shell shocked at the lost of their friends. There was not any defeatist excuse that I saw or heard.

Is this the same defeatist attitude we Imperialist American have because we are not enlightened by the teachings of Marx and Engles?

What I did see was people trying to come to grips with the disaster in a professional manner and giving what information they had on hand as best as they could under the circumstances.

And what I see in your posts is a closed mind that has already decided it was those terrible NASA folks who killed off seven of their own just for laughs.

Grown up, Moonman62, and open your eyes and ears to all the info before engaging your mouth.

[freepersup]

Foam versus ice ? How much energy would be directed at the impact point with the tile if it was foam, and how much energy would be directed at the point of impact with the tile, if it was ice? Is there a difference ? Is it substantial ? Aren't the tiles the achilles heel of the orbiter?

Why does it matter to you which it was?

It goes to the heart of the matter. Is NASA being forthright with itself regarding the tile's fragile properties ? Does NASA have proof positive that the debris object is foam ? It seems premature to rule out ice. If it is ice, then you have a known factor that could be far more damaging to the tiles than the foam, IMHO.

The tile have been in use as long as the shuttle has been in operation, 22 years- correct ? Ice isn't something new. There has always been the potential for damage to the tiles by dislodged ice during launch, therefore, to postulate whether ice damaged the wing, does not seem to be out of the realm of possiblities.

[Rockitz]

Getting Sick of Armchair Rocket Scientists!

Me too!

[HairOfTheDog]

No, it isn't outside the realm of possibility at all.... But at this point they have looked at it, and think it looks more like foam than ice. They didn't say they ruled it out....

[Frank_Discussion]

The ice teams remove ice before launch or there is no launch.

At the time of the impact, the speed was too great to allow water to condense on the surface. At that altitude, the humidity is much lower, and air much thinner. No ice would have collected after launch.

I'm 99% sure it was foam, not ice.

[NonValueAdded]

The ground temperature was 40 degrees F with 100% relative humidity.

Don't think so ... we watched the launch from the parking lot in shirt sleeves if I recall. Will check, though. The humidity has been low down here for weeks.

[freepersup]

(Getting Sick of Armchair Rocket Scientists!)
Aw come on Frank... the armchair rocket scientists (I play one on TV by the way) liven up the discussions around here. We're the ying- and the rocket scientists around here are the yang. It's like Bogie and Bacall...

Think of us as those metal ducks in a shooting gallery at your friendly country bumpkin carnival. It seems like taking candy from a baby, mowing us down until all of a sudden you run out of BB's or time runs out. It's not as easy as you think...

Before the next shuttle goes up, I believe they will make sure that a tethered astronaut can either make repairs to the outside of the shuttle or can at least examine it.

They have had twenty two years to figure out a way to repair tiles in space, or, let me rephrase that, they should have been figuring out a way to repair tiles in space. Not to manufacturer's specs., but to the specs. of survival. A field expedient method. Something good enough. One re-entry.

I believe a tile repair kit will be on board the next shuttle to fly. I am not suggesting that they will have the ability to make every single tile, but perhaps a mold with an adjustable frame that would take into account the height, width, depth, pitch, angle, etc. A suitable cold mix that may not even be close to the compounds used in a common tile.

FWIW, Saying that there was nothing they could do, IS- a defeatist attitude, and it is not the American way.

Here's a novel idea...a rescue vehicle designed for shuttle rescues, parked at the ISS. It could be exchanged when needed for a refurbished one, and a unit or module could be designed on the ISS for this express purpose.

What we so called armchair rocket scientists can do, is add a fresh perspective to the discussion because we are not constrained by the present NASA paradigms. We don't know what it is we are not supposed to know or suppose...

[the_doc]

I believe a tile repair kit will be on board the next shuttle to fly.

Maybe you're right. But I'm afraid that it would just be a goody-feely gesture. (Regular glue is not going to work. And placing epoxy at minus 250 degrees and 0 psi is not going to make for a good repair. Furthermore, at 12000 mph, a lousy repair is probably no repair at all.)

[freepersup]

Appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I should probably preface every response with the disclaimer that the following is a hindsight 20-20 opinion. Which it is...

Murphy's law is the problem. 22 years and one fatal accident on launch and one fatal accident on re-entry. Considering the business... I'm surprised that there hasn't been more fatal accidents than what we've seen.

Look at commercial aircraft accidents, for example. A flaw in a screwjack for adjusting an elevator in the tail of a particular aircraft resulted in a fatal accident. Now, inspection of this component is done in a whole new way. Before the accident and subsequent fatalities, it was off the radar screen of most maintenance personnel.

The hindsight is... yeah we don't have a program for repairing the tiles, and were likely not to have one in six or twelve months from now, either. But (drum roll) the dubious but, but- if we had been exploring technologies for the past 22 years, we might have a glue or system or way to make some repairs. Maybe a patch that can be fastened on with something as simple as a self tapping threaded bolt, that has tremendous heat resistant capabilities.

Trouble is, the tiles didn't represent a problem of such magnitude as what we are seeing today, so they were off the radar screen in a sense.

Or were they... a ticking time bomb ? In fairness to all, that's hindsight 20-20. I'd say NASA will have to deal with the debris strike scenario and the relative damage posed by such a strike to the tile, and come up with a remedy. To do otherwise would be irresponsible, IMHO. The cat's out of the bag, so to speak.

The accident happened. Let's learn from it. Maybe the root cause has nothing to do with the tiles. What if they design a repair kit for the tiles irrespective of the cause ? That would be a good thing. Yes ? No ?

[the_doc]

I'm still not convinced that NASA will ever come up with a good tile repair technique.

I think it's more likely that we will re-direct the overall program and go to a space plane with descent-speed control.