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World War II Rescued American Airmen Defend Serbs [WARNING-GRAPHIC PHOTOS]
National Committee of American Airmen ^ | April 9, 1999 | Richard L. Felman

Posted on 02/07/2003 6:24:30 PM PST by Karadjordje

US airman under Serbian care

Award for Serbian Chetnik leader Dragoljub Mihailovich

Award for Serbian Chetnik leader Dragoljub Mihailovich

The cover of Time Magazine, May 25, 1942. Their article began: "He clasps the crag with crooked hands...he watches from his mountain walls, and like a thunderbolt he falls."

Open letter—April 9, 1999
To Our Troops In The Former Yugoslavia

"We Found Out The Truth About the Serbs...When We Were Shot Down"
World War II Rescued American Airmen Defend Serbs
By Richard L. Felman

Over 500 MlAs Saved By The Serbian People During WWII

During World War II, we were in the Army Air Corps list as "Missing in Action" in the very same area you are now serving.  If we may, we would like to relay to you a frank, soldier-to-soldier message about our personal experience while there—something which politicians who sent you there have not told you and something which you have not read or seen in the anti-Serb media.

In 1944, the members of our committee were flying bombing missions out of Italy over Southern Europe.  During that time over 500 of us were shot down over enemy-occupied Yugoslavia and saved from certain death by the Serbian people.  Ours was the greatest rescue of American lives from behind enemy lines in history but has been kept under wraps all these years because of pressure from foreign sources. [Emphasis added]

While we were there, those of us who were wounded were given whatever medical supplies they had even at the deprivation of their own troops.   If there was one piece of bread in the house, or one egg, it went to the American airmen while the Serb went hungry.

If there was one bed or one blanket, it went to us while the Serb slept on the bare ground.  No risk of sacrifice was too great to insure our safety and well being.  One experience which is forever seared in my memory is the time a village with 200 women and children was burned to the ground by the Germans because the Serbs would not tell them where they were hiding us.  To this day, I can smell the terrible stench of their burning flesh.  One does not forget such things.

The most incredible part of our rescue was that before each mission, our bomber crews were briefed by the highest levels of American intelligence that if shot down over Yugoslavia, we were to stay away from the Serbian people as they were collaborating with the Germans and "cutting off the ears of American airmen" before turning them over. Only after we were shot down did we find out the amazing thoroughness with which the truth about the Serbs was being distorted. [Emphasis added]

Further compounding this deception is the fact that while the Serbs were our allies in WWII, Croatians and Muslims (who we are favoring today) were allies of the Nazis, shooting at us and responsible for killing many of our fellow American fliers.  In view of the lies we were told about the Serbs during World War II, we could not help but wonder if our foreign policy there today is the same anti-Serb bias we encountered 52 years ago.

Could our career diplomats sacrifice former friends and reward former enemies in the name of political expediency?  Could it be because in the world community there are over one billion Muslims and only 9 million Serbian Orthodox Christians with the same proportionate power in the global economy?  Could it be because the Serbs have no oil wells and no unlimited oil money?

Could it be because the Croatians and Muslims outspend the Serbs 50 to one on lobbyists, media firms and campaign contributions?  Could this be why, "atrocities" are manufactured to make the Serbs look bad while gaining sympathy for their opponents?  Could this be why the Serbs are branded "aggressors" in land they have lived on for over 600 years? 

Could our policy have something to do with the fact there are 540 members of Congress, none of whom are Orthodox Christians?  Could the State Department’s bitter bias, against General Draza Mihailovich, the anti-Communist guerrilla leader who saved us, be based on the fact he was a Serb?

Could these be the reasons the State Department has covered up the truth of our rescue all these years and opposed our petition to express   gratitude for saving over 500 American lives (a petition which is supported by the 8 million veterans of the American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign  Wars and the Air Force Association and which has been approved by the United States Senate.)?

Could it be these are the reasons the Chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee has also denied our petition by saying to us here are "ethnic groups in Yugoslavia" who oppose it?

Are we mad?  You can bet your next month’s paycheck that we are mad!  We did not leave our families, risk our lives and watch our buddies get their arms, legs and heads blown off so that "ethnic groups in Yugoslavia" could tell us what we could or could not do in our own country.

Now that the spring thaw has set in, temperatures and tempers will start to rise in the volatile area you now find yourselves.  All we ask is that in your dealings with the local people you be made aware of the eyewitness experience of your fellow comrades-in-arms.  By speaking out now we have nothing to gain except a burning moral passion to tell the truth, a sworn duty to protect our national honor, a patriotic desire to express heart felt gratitude to those on foreign soil who save American lives while they are fighting in defense of our glorious country.

Now that you have been sent to foreign soil and asked to risk your lives we feel you should know the truth and not be "suckered in" by the rhetoric of highly paid public relations firms, foreign lobbyists and self-serving politicians who know absolutely nothing of the region’s history.

We might also add that had it not been for the Serbian people, Air Force General Donald J. Smith, our chairman and one our rescued airmen, would not have survived the war and been able to dedicate 40 years of honorable service to his country.

Had it not been for the Serbian people, technical Sgt. Curtis "Bud" Diles, another of our airmen, would not be alive today in Dayton, Ohio, enjoying retirement with his four children and 12 grandchildren.

There are hundreds of us with stories just like those.   Some of the greatest testimony to the many sacrifices made on our behalf us the many thousands of American children who are alive today solely because the Serbian people saved over 500 of their grandfathers during World War II.  Some of them could very well be serving with you today in Bosnia. 

I was one of three rescued American airmen who returned last year to the former Yugoslavia to commemorate the 50th anniversary of victory in Europe with the people who saved us and to visit the cow pasture that  served as a landing strip from which we were rescued.  The most moving  experience of our sentimental trip was being cheered by over 50,000 Serbs who gathered at a mountain top to welcome us and who kept chanting "USA, USA".

As American military men, we have a proud tradition of "duty, honor and country" to uphold and a fierce sense of loyalty to those with whom we fought side by side in combat.  We never forget their kindness nor do we return their battlefield sacrifices for us by bombing their women and children.  The Serbian people helped us when we were desperate and in trouble. Now that the situation is reversed we can do no less.

Please keep these untarnished truths in mind as you now serve our country and all it stands for, and may God bless you all as we pray for your safe return.

This war will not last long.  If for no other reason, it appears the US Forces are already running low on missiles.  And, Clinton’s blustering threats of "escorting the Albanian Kosovars back to their home" is silliness.

So far Clinton’s war has failed to even find ONE of Milosevic’s mobile units to shoot at.  How does he plan on personally escort back the reported 1,000,000 Albanians his spokespersons claim have fled the country?   The Serbs tied up 10 divisions of Hitler’s Crack troops—even after they lost the war.

If he continues the kind of bombing he conducted last couple of nights, he is going to lose the humanitarian war on CNN.  Pictures of mothers and newborn premature babies being evacuated from the hospital 100 yards from the Interior Ministry’s spectacular blaze, a father on the street being interviewed saying it was "easy for Clinton to drop bombs on the children from the skybut we will see what kind of man he is when he comes to our soil" or the flames from a residential area hit in last night’s bombing raids, are far more dramatic and horrifying than watching Albanian refugees who are riding trains to the border and walking across.

Pictures of bombs on civilian targets.  So far this week, over 1000 people are reported to have died so far in the bombing raids. That is a far higher death toll than Christiane Amanpour has been able to muster up in her drive to sell the Albanian side to a jaded, suspicious American public.

The world is seeing the results of the bombs.  The effort to portray the Serbs, as US News and World Report does in its April 12, 1999, issue on "Balkan Hell" as crazed killers is largely verbal so far.

Stories of "summary executions," US News and World Report noted, were hard to "prove" but are "quite credible given the Serbs’ vicious record.  These stories are being challenged by those, such as Col. Felman, USAF Ret., who have had personal experiences with the Serbs.

We are in a whole new kind of warfare, folks, and it appears that Milosevic has pretty much won it. It already sounds like the Clinton administration is trying to figure out who it can blame for the debacle.

Redacted for inclusion on this site.   Contact information:

Richard L. Felman Major USAF (Ret), President
National Committee of American Airmen
Rescued by General Mlhailovich, Inc.
PO Box 17478
Tuscon, Arizona 85731

DISCLAIMER: The content of this message is the sole responsibility of the originator. Posting of this message to the POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK © list does not show AIIPOWMIAI endorsement. It is provided so you may make an informed decision. AIIPOWMIAI is not associated in any capacity with any United States Government agency or entity, nor with any non-governmental organization.  Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc.1220 Locust Avenue, Bohemia, Long Island, New York 11716-2169 USA Voice: (1-516) 567-9057 Fax: (1-516) 244-7097 TDD: (1-516) 244-6996 E-mail: (Bob Necci) (Andi Wolos) Website:


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: airman; balkans; campaignfinance; flyboys; kia; mia; mihailovic; mihailovich; pilots; ploesti; pow; serbs; truman; us; usaaf; usaf; yugoslavia
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To: CobaltBlue
Do I defend Draza or Slobodan?

Do I defend the Serbian people or Slobodan?

Do I accuse the people who abolished Communism or the one who committet crimes against Serbian civilians?


51 posted on 02/08/2003 6:46:11 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Karadjordje
Well, I said I thought that Milosovic should be executed, and you appeared to find that objectionable.
52 posted on 02/08/2003 6:55:38 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: CobaltBlue
Executed because he is a Communist or a Serb or both?

You sound like Adolf Hitler:

In 1939 Hitler said: "I have three enemies, the Serbs, the Jews and the Communists."

I don't know what your real origins are...

And further, what should we do with Alija Izetbegovic, an Islamist?

And tell me why F. Tudjman never went to Den Haag?


53 posted on 02/08/2003 7:39:45 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: CobaltBlue
CobaltBlue wrote
Serbs don't have any problems killing Christians. Croats are also Christians.

Read what the



Miro Bajramovic

has to say about how he and his special police forces soldiers treated serbs in

1991 in Pakracka Poljana

, Croatia -

in his own words!

His testimony was published in the

Croatian weekly journal Feral Tribune

in September 1, 1997:



Independent weekly journal Feral Tribune published on September 1, 1997, an interview with Miro Bajramovic, ex- subcommander of the Croatian special police forces who was active during the war in 1991 in Pakracka Poljana. He directly accused some of the then high officials of the Croatian army and government.

President of the Croatian Helsinki Committee for Human Rights, Ivan Zvonimir Cicak, reacted immediately by writing a letter on September 1, 1997, at 10:57 am to the President of the Republic of Croatia, dr. Franjo Tudman, which we herewith enclose and as a consequence of which the following was undertaken: Miro Bajramovic was arrested that same day at 6 p.m. Later on four more persons, whose names were mentioned in the interview and who were directly involved in killings and executions in Pakracka Poljana were also arrested.

The editorial office of one of the most important informative programs on the state-controlled television "Motrista" severely attacked the CHC President, I. Z. Cicak for writing the letter and denunciating the Croatian state once again.

Feral Tribune, Split, Croatia, September 1, 1997

Editor's note:
There comes the time when the yesterday's bakers, painters, poets, chimney-sweepers and engineers turn into cold-blooded murderers over night. This is a story about one of them.

A phone rang in the editorial office of Feral. Forty-year-old Miro Bajramovic, mechanical engineer, father of four. Later it will be seen that besides these benign facts, Miro Bajramovic is, by his own confession, responsible for the death of 86 people, out of which he killed 72 with his own hands. He was a member of Mercep's unit "Autumn Rain" in Gospic, Pakracka Poljana serving a 4 month prison term. Unlike some of his fellow soldiers, who have in the meantime built restaurants and have been awarded medals from the President, Bajramovic is rejected and today has nothing except - as he says - a wonderful family.

He wanted to tell his story to the public, a story which certainly in this country is not the only one, but is nevertheless no less horrifying. We talked with him at several different locations (from Tuesday to Friday). That which follows is his complete story.


My name is Miro Bajramovic and I am directly responsible for the death of 86 people. I go to bed with this thought, and - if I sleep at all - I wake up with the same thought. I killed 72 people with my own hands, among them nine were women. We made no distinction, asked no questions; they were "Chetniks" [Serbs] and our enemies. The most difficult thing is to ignite a house or kill a man for the first time; but afterwards, everything becomes routine. I know the names and surnames of those I killed.

I was born 1/30/1957 in Zenica [Bosnia-Hercegovina]; I have no memory of my father, and my mother died in 1990. I finished mechanics school in Zenica and moved to Zagreb, where I got a job in Janko Gredelj, in steam locomotives department at the main railway station. Later on I got a job in the "Rade Koncar" factory, where I was given a chance to further my studies. I graduated from the University for Mechanics. In 1990 I lost my job and soon received an invitation from the Ministry of the Interior.

I met Tomislav Mercep in 1991 in the village of Dalj. We fought together from that time on, and had been through many things together. Our unit was named "The Autumn Rains" i.e. officially the 1st special unit of MUP. Croatian soldiers knew very well who was in "Autumn Rain" units.


Before going to Pakracke Poljane, somewhere in the autumn of 1991, we were in Gospic. We conquered the military base, headed towards Lovinac, but were ordered to return. It was enough to be a Serb in Gospic to mean that you did not exist anymore. Our unit liquidated some 90 to 100 people in less than a month there. Therefore, it is not true what Vekic said - in an interview published in your newspapers - that 170 people were killed in Gospic; nobody was there at that time performing the liquidation except us.

That story about a doctor from Gospic is also false: he was not killed, he committed suicide. It is also untrue that we burned 50 Serbs in one house. We did kill but never by means of burning.

The role of Tihomir Oreskovic; I think he is a good man and it was good working with him. Due to our friendship I'd rather not talk about him. The order for Gospic was to perform "ethnic cleansing", so we killed directors of post offices and hospitals, a restaurant owner and many other Serbs. Executions were performed by shooting at point blank range since we did not have much time. I repeat, orders from the headquarters were to reduce the percentage of Serbs in Gospic.

We went to Slano four times and liquidated 13 persons there, all Serbs. Their centre was in the village of Vukovici, between Slano and Dubrovnik. I killed 8 out of 13. I was together with Sinisa Rimac, Miroslav Brisevac, Miljenko Zadro, Igor Mikula, and little Gordana (I cannot recall her family name).


We arrived in Pakracka Poljana on October 6, 1997 after returning from Gospic. In the beginning, the fire station served as our headquarters and prison. At that time a photographer arrived from Zagreb and filmed our location; within few days, the site was bombed, and so we moved our headquarters to the end of the village and the prison in the school in Me­uriµi, towards Kutina. I must say that it was not our decision that our base be situated in that place; we were ordered to keep the territory around Pakrac safe; later on when Boljkovac (then the minister of the Interior) and Mercep arrived on the site, they agreed that the base be placed there (in Pakracke Poljane). Our first action was an assault on a Serb base in Kukunjevac, a village 18 km long, which we fired on for four hours.

We kept prisoners in the school cellar; and when we had more prisoners, we would put them in classrooms. Nights were the worst for them, since it was then that we "interrogated them" ...; this consisted of finding the best way to inflict the greatest pain in order to make them confess the most amount of information.

Do you know which is the best way? Burning prisoner with a flame, pour vinegar over their wounds, mostly on genitalia and on the eyes. Then there is that little inductor, field phone, you plug a Serb onto that; it is a direct current which cannot kill, but it is very irritating. You ask him where he comes from, he says from Dvor, and you then dial a number in that place. Or, a five-wire cable would be stuck into a prisoner's rectum and was left there for hours so that they couldn't sit.

Wounds were opened and salt or vinegar scattered over them; we did not let the bleeding stop. The prison commander Mijo Jolic forced them to learn on the same day the Croatian anthem; today he possess- just like Suljic- restaurants all over Croatia. Why don't I have anything?

When I recall all that torturing, I wonder they managed to think of all of those methods. For example, the most painful is to stick little pins under the nails and to connect it to the three-phase current; nothing remains of a man but ashes. I would never think of that, although I do know of the Lenz law. I was doing the interrogation of prisoners, but I never harassed them nor did I enjoy that; but some did, as Munib Suljic for example. We only cared about the results he would get, we did not bother with the means he used. After all, we knew that they would all be killed, so it did not matter if we hurt him more today or tomorrow. During the torture, people would confess all they knew, or what they were asked for. We did play some kind of a democratic police at the beginning and would give papers to Serbs to write all they knew, for instance names or locations.


T. Mercep was commander of Poljane, I was the subcommander. Mercep knew everything. He did not participate directly in the liquidation, but he read about what we did in our reports, though most of the reports were conducted orally. He knew about each execution, because he was a commander and was a very charismatic person. He told us several times: "Tonight you have to clean all these shits." This meant that all prisoners should be executed. If you did not carry out everything that was ordered, then they said that you were a traitor. We killed both Serbs and Croats in Pakracka Poljana. The village was echoing with screams. People heard cries and whines coming from prisons but were afraid to tell us anything. Everybody knew that if they asked anything at all, they would end up in prison.

Who were these Croats? Well, the most beautiful one was Marina Nuic. Then Aleksandar Antic, although many incorrectly claimed that he was a Serb. Ten police ID cards were found in his car. He was accused of being a traitor and was executed. Zvonimir Trusic gave orders for his execution. Antic told Mikula: Please, I would like you to kill me. And he did. A bullet from a magnum to his head. He had to dig his own grave before the execution. Suljic, Rimac and Mikula beat him terribly at the Velesajam (the collective centre), it was only when he was brought down that he was really interrogated.

Then there was Ilija Horvat, whose only sin was to invite both Croats and Serbs into his home. Then there was an Italian, because there is an Italian village in the vicinity of Poljana. And this Italian, like all Italians, was corrupt. We arrested him and killed him without any discussion. I personally killed him.

Once I stated that every person that I killed, died happy. I issued them release forms written on tiny bits of paper and let them go home. Then I waited for them with a sniper. They died with a smile. This Italian stole an automatic rifle, which was kept in the school building and which he sold to the Serbs.


We did not separate Serb civilians and soldiers from each other. If we found a rifle hidden in his/her house, we considered him/her a Chetnik. Serbs at the time could not survive, because there is a saying: wherever we trod, the grass does not grow again. As far as I know, more then 50 Serbs were taken to Poljana from Zagreb. The closest of Mercep's associates - Rimac, Suljic, Mikula, Hodak and I were in charge of bringing them to Pakracka Poljana. We worked in two groups, one was in charge of taking them to Velesajam, and the other of taking them further. I mostly attended arrests, because I am a rhetoric and I tried to be civil in such occasions. I always told prisoners that I was only doing my job. I even have a witness for this - his name is Stevan Barjanovic - he can boast that he was the only Serb who survived Pakracka Poljana.

First, we arrested Milos Ivosevic, state director of customs. When we came to his office and talked to his secretary, a Croat, she was afraid to tell us his whereabouts. We found him on Rudeska cesta while he was building a house, and he told me: "In the end you Croats will be cleaning our shoes." He was directly responsible for the attack on the Krnjak police station, where 11 of our fellow-soldiers died, so we did not have any mercy towards him. We interrogated him for 4-5 days, after which he mentioned the name of Stevan Barjanovic.

I came to Stevan' s house on the day of his mother's death. I deeply apologised for the things I was doing. He started off towards Velesajam with his Toyota, and he had a smoked ham in his car. I, acting like an idiot, took this ham from him and took it to the bar "Stela" and gave it to Zvonko Trusic and told him to slice it up for our boys. Later on, in the course of his investigation, Stevan said that I treated him well; but then he asked about his ham. Fuck the ham! This is how I nearly ended up as a war profiteer, although I never even tasted it.

I cannot call Serb a gentleman, but I admire him for the fact that in the course of the investigative procedure he held to truth and facts, and in fact he could have said all kinds of things against us. I do not know whether he did it because he was afraid, because at the time we executed a majority of witnesses. Barjanovic is maybe not aware that he is the only Serb who survived Pakracka Poljana. He survived because he was accidentally wounded in prison, and Dzemal Peles, the idiot, took him to the hospital in Kutina, instead of killing him. He became crown witness later and he could have told everything. O.K, such was the order coming from the highest authorities and investigative judges did not insist on details.


It is difficult to say how long we held prisoners. This depended on how long it took us to wear them out. In most cases we held them 4-5 days before we killed them. If they had survived, they would not have been normal. Serbs, who were good and loyal served us by digging graves, we told them that they were digging covers for machine guns. Once, one of the prisoners from Kutina said that this was the 15th or 16th cover that he was digging. He was executed on the spot. It wasn't up to him to count but to dig.

Self-interest was very popular at the moment. Thirty of us went some 50 meters in front of the first tank. We cleaned and executed everyone. After us there were others who called themselves "mercepovci", who stole from the houses and then burnt them. These were Ma­eralo and Rukavina ... Mercep told us to take everything away from the Serbs, and the money we found should be handed over to Headquarters for purchasing arms. However, Trusic, Mercep, and Rukavina, who was called Pop and Nedeljko Posavec, divided the money amongst themselves. How do I know that? A day before the murder of Pavo Mlinaric, Posavec and Rukavina shot at each other because they did not split the money equally. Posavec was removed from the unit, however the money was not taken away from him, and it wasn't merely a question of 1000 or 100000 DM, but much more.

I could not say that mass executions were carried out in Pakracka Poljana. These were mostly groups of 7 to 10 people. It actually depended on how many people were in the prison at the time. Sometimes we executed people in their homes, and then blew up the house. There were no bodies left. There were many houses like this, mostly in the village of Bujavica.

We were thinking along these lines at the time; kill the children of a Serb because they survive at 20 degrees below freezing. I did not have any feelings at the time towards Serbs as being human beings like us, that they are somebody's father, brothers, children....No, we did not kill children, except for Suljic who killed little Aleksandra Zec. I saved 10 children by my own hands in Vocin. I would not be able to look into my little daughter's eyes if I had killed children.

According to my estimate, there were 280 people all together killed in Poljana, including 10 women. Besides Marina Nuic, there was a Nada from the village of Kusonja who was infiltrated among us. There was a very old lady also in whose house they found a sniper. Besides this old lady, all women were raped and then killed. That's the truth.

It is my firm belief that if it hadn't been for the Zec family, nothing would have been known about Pakracka Poljana. It was the main key and the main reason why the unit has been looked at from this angle, and there were many Pakracka Poljanas in Croatia.


There is only one thing that I cannot understand - why do they make the Zec family seem charismatic? It is a well known thing that Mihajlo Zec worked for the other side, for the Serbs, although he belonged the HDZ party and tried to help the Croatian army. The fact is that while we were holding our positions in Dobrovac near Lipik we found out that Milorad Zec, Mihajlo's brother, was returning home every night from Subotska to sleep there. We even waited for him one night in his house in Dobrovac.

We can talk about the way we conducted the interrogation of our prisoners - but there are no secrets here - we beat and physically abused prisoners in any way possible in order to extort their confession. That is when he confessed for whom and what his brother did.

When I came to Zagreb, I issued an order for Mihajlo Zec's arrest. Mercep gave me this order. Mihajlo Zec was more worth to us alive then dead. However, Munib Suljic, intoxicated and drugged out, joined on his own initiative, the group which was supposed to arrest Mihajlo Zec. I told Sinisa Rimac that only in case of resisting the arrest should M. Zec be executed. He tried to escape, Rimac let him go, although it is very hard for me to understand how a 19 year old man like him could not stop Zec. Well, maybe it was just a question of the moment, and then he shot him.

Then suddenly Munib Suljic appeared driving a blue van, without licence plates, because our arrests around Zagreb were carried out by vehicles without licence plates and in uniforms without insignias, to pick up little Aleksandra and Mrs. Zec. He first took them to the Panorama hotel, then to Sljeme and then he killed them there.

A few days ago Suljic's statement issuing a denial that he had never confessed the crime was published in Nacional. It is true that upon his arrest, Suljic told everything, confessed everything, and then took the police officers to Sljeme and showed the location of their graves. Then he confessed that he himself did the killings. The most tragic thing was that he threatened Nebojsa Hodak-Cena, Igor Mikula, Sinisa Rimac and little Snjezana Zivkovic from Gospic, and he even forced Mikula to fire 20 bullets at little Aleksandra and Mrs. Zec. This was in order for him to be sure, and then he forced them to bury the bodies.

This is the mere reason why they were involved in this affair. Rimac publicly admitted in the course of the investigation: I killed Mihajlo Zec, but do not accuse me of other things". That's the truth. Today they make Mihajlo Zec look like a hero and tales are told that he died in vain. If it were up to me, if I were the one to publish some newspaper, I would write more about Marina Nuic, because she is the one that really died in vain.


Who killed Marina Nuic? By name and surname? Igor Mikula. He was following orders which were issued by Dzemal Pelesa, the former doorman in the Zagreb Transportation Services. There were certain improvisations concerning the attempts to assassinate Tomislav Mercep, who was at the time at the Rebro hospital. She was raped 19 times by Munib Suljic and executed. She did not say a word. She only said: "Miro, let them kill me at once". I can show you her grave. Her parents still do not know where she was buried. The place is called Janja Lipa and is situated near Pakracka Poljana.

However, let us see the reasons why she was killed. Branko Caric Kosa, Mikula and I think Rimac and Ceno guarded Mercep at the hospital, you know, stood in front of his door, because, Mercep was visited by more then 200 people daily. Then information leaked out that Mercep was supposed to get a pen from Marina Nuic and that that pen would kill him.

Marina came with the Rijeka brigade and she was, my God, only 5 days with us. One night she called me, and invited me for a drink, my witness is Franjo Nemet, in the one liquor store called "Domovina", and it was one of the places where we drank. We met there that night. She had beautiful hair that night, straight falling on her back, mahogany colour. Mercep was wounded in Lovska a few days earlier. The troops from Rijeka failed to protect us, and we found ourselves surrounded by enemy troops. People from Cazma were slaughtered there. She looked at me for a very long time and said: "When will this war end, and what is still ahead of us?"

I told her like this: "Marina, there is only tomorrow for us and nothing else, and the day will come". She was later arrested. I did not know that this would happen. They put her in our detention centre in Me­uric. She was a woman and she was beaten there severely...

I would like to contact Marina's parents, because I am a father too, and I would like to know everything about my child. Marina came to our unit together with 200 people from Rijeka, because at the time we had many problems with a shortage of men. There were many soldiers at the time in Zagreb, but they mostly waged war drinking at the bar.

When it came to the point to go into the field to fight, few of them actually came. We were rather well-known at the time, that we were mostly engaged in clearing the territory and that we fought direct battles with Chetniks, that we confronted tanks at a distance of 50 meters and that we simply did not fool around. We started off towards Lovska. Thirty-two of us fell into a trap. However we counted on 500 people from Rijeka, who were 500 meters behind us, and if one of them had fired only one shot, we would have been able to get out of it. However, when they heard that we had lost our first tank, they turned around and ran away. We somehow managed to get out of there and found people from Rijeka some 8 kilometres behind us. They threw away their arms and we made them leave for Rijeka the following morning. We did not need soldiers like that. However, I chose among all of them some 10 people who deserved to stay. That is how Marina stayed and today I feel sorry for not letting her go. She was so innocent, she did not know how to cry, she only wept.

Her execution was not ordered by her name or surname, but it was merely said that the prison should be cleansed, and that meant that prisoners should be executed, among them Marina.


I would like to issue a denial of the statement made by Ivan Vekic in the last Feral. He lied, he knew everything. I can tell him how many orders our unit received from him. He would say: "I demand that you do this, this and this". We never returned without completing the order, and these were mostly executions. It was his order that Milos Ivosevic should be killed, and because of him we had to kill the last living Serb from Poljane Stevan Brajanovic.

It is not the case, as Vekic stated, that there was a separate Mercep and Mika unit. Mika Cvitanovic took over the unit after Mercep dissolved it on January 30, 1992 and after the unit became a part of the First National Guard Brigade. This is when Mika made some sort of insignia which indicated that this was both Mercep's and Mika's brigade. This made Mercep very angry. Our unit was called "Autumn Rain". I repeat, Ivan Vekic knew everything.


I was in prison from January 2nd to April 30th of 1992. It was the saddest moment for me when Croatia was recognised on January 15 and I was in the Remetinec prison. We were released when Seks became public prosecutor, but we were released in two groups. Mikula, Hodak, Snjezana Zivkovic, Suljic and Rimac remained for forty days longer in prison because of the Zec case.

The first month in prison they behaved rudely towards us. No, nobody could touch us, because if there would have been some physical misconduct, I think there would no longer be a police station in ðordiceva Street. Mercep had a lot of influence in this, as he was the one that organised our defence, as well as Ivan Vekic, who is now going public with all sorts of nonsense. At that time he was on our side. Maybe I have already said this, but Justice Jovanovic and Justice Horvatinovic were very co-operative and they did not ask for any details.


I was silent about this for a long time, expecting that someone in this country would remember that I exist. My children eat just like Mercep's do, yet he has two houses in Zagreb, two apartments and a house on Brac, and he came from Vukovar without a Kuna (a dime) in his pocket. Then, Stipe Spajic, Manderalo à how did they earn all that they now possess. Let them tell me how I should earn something as well. I am ready to dig and I will dig, I do not find this disgraceful. I expect that Tudman will invite me personally after all this and that he will ask me why all this was necessary. I will tell him: "Only for my children". I am only looking for a job and that my family have a roof over their head.

I am a big believer. I have on my finger a rosary-ring from Medugorje. God forgives everything to a certain limit. I think I have been punished enough up to now for what I did. My lifelong dream would be satisfied if my children have their subsistence ensured, because I know very well what will happen to me after this story, but I would like somebody to take care of my children. I really do have a beautiful marriage and a beautiful family, two small children. My wife knows about everything I did since this was the only way that we could live together.

I do not feel any sense of relief after telling you my story. I am afraid of my unit. These are experienced professionals who do not miss often. And I know that the Hague is unavoidable as well.


President of the Republic of Croatia
Franjo Tudman
10 000 Zagreb
Pantovcak 241

Esteemed Sir,

A shocking interview with the engineer Miro Bajramovic, a former member of the special police forces which had been active in the homeland war, was published in the weekly journal Feral Tribune on September 1, 1997.

The fact that Mr. Bajramovic very thoroughly depicted and described the events which occurred during the war and which are punishable as war crimes under the Criminal Code of the Republic of Croatia, as well as the Statute of the International War Tribunal, I request that Mr. Bajramovic and his family be given full protection.

Namely, Mr. Bajramovic has announced a possibility of retaliation against himself on behalf of his former fellow-soldiers. Since Mr. Bajramovic delivers some facts in his interview which will jeopardise certain persons who held very high positions in the Croatian government, the Committee demands that you personally use your authority and position in order to protect Mr. Bajramovic, not only as a potential witness in domestic and Hague tribunals, but as well as a possible defendant, since he himself admitted that he had personally executed 72 persons, of which 9 were women.

By respecting the legal principles of the state, the Croatian Helsinki Committee for Human Rights does not wish to influence in any way the work of the legal institutions in the Republic of Croatia, however we freely believe that there are more then enough elements which can be found in Bajramoviµ's statements which public prosecutor, Mr. Hranjski, should take into consideration while at least initiating criminal investigation against Mr. Bajramovic. We wish to inform you that the Committee has informed the Prosecutor's Office in the Hague concerning the content of the interview.

Finally it is our opinion that this would be the best protection for Mr. Bajramovic from the retaliation of his fellow-soldiers. Since the Committee, at the same time, understands the practical realism of the whole situation in which the Croatian society and the state on the whole is placed, we wish to inform you that in case something "accidentally" happens to Mr. Bajramovic, the Committee will hold you responsible.

Lastovo, September 1, 1997

For the Committee:
Ivan Zvonimir Cicak

Ms Louise Arbour
Prosecutor's Office
Churchillplein 1
2517 JW The Hague
P.O. Box 13888
2501 EW The Hague

Esteemed Ms. Arbour,

As announced in our letter of 01/09/1997, we submit herewith the translation of the text published in the September 1, 1997 issue of the weekly Feral Tribune.

As you already know, the CHC President sent a letter on 01/09/97 at 10, 57 a.m. to the President of the Republic, dr. Franjo Tudman concerning the matter.

The TV evening news informed the public about Mr. Bajramovic's arrest, under suspicion of committing criminal acts liable to punishment.

Executive Director
Bozo Kovacevic"

Source: (<- click)

CobaltBlue wrote:

Keep on laughting, defender of Croatian fascist Ustasha and Bosnian Islamist Mudshahedins


54 posted on 02/09/2003 4:32:09 AM PST by Karadjordje
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To: CobaltBlue
CobaltBlue wrote
"Crazy, indeed, and crude revisionism. Some Serbs collaborated with the Nazis, some Croats and Bosnians fought the Nazis."

Dear Editor

Survivors of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp, USA

Letters to the Editor
New York times

Survivors of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp, USA
PO Box 14, Homecrest Station, Brooklyn NY 11229

May 20, 1996

Letters to the Editor
New York times
Dear Editor:

In an important story, "Croatian War-Shrine Plan Revives Pain", which describes the attempt by Croatian President Franjo Tudjman to minimize the victims of the holocaust, "NYTimes" reporter Chris Hedges makes a number of serious errors. He falsely asserts that Croatian Serbs "trashed the small Museum in Jasenovac." In fact, the Jasenovac Museum was destroyed by departing Croatian troops who captures the area briefly in September of 1991, according to accounts in the London " Independent", the Washington "Times" and a documentary film by Michael Ignatieff . While generally ignored by the world community, the desecration of this shrin caused anguish among Serbs, Jews and Gypsies, whose relatives perished at this ghastly camp.

Hedges also shrinks the number of victims of Jasenovac much in the manner of Tudjman, who is being duly criticized. citing anonymous "independent scholars in t he United States," Hedges laces the numbers of Jasenovac victims at 80,000. Based on German sources, such as Hitler's envoy Herman Neubacher, Holocaust historia n Simon Wiesenthal uses the figure of 750,000 Serbian holocaust victims, the bul k of whom were killed in Jasenovac. German officer Ernst Fik also put the number of victims at more than 700, 000. Dr. Walter Reich, current director of the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington refers to "several hundred thousand" slaughtered at Jasenovac in a recent article criticizing Tudjman's plan to bury execu tors with victims.

Yugoslavia was never taken through the process of the deNazification that the a llies required the Germans to undergo. For this reason, the enormity of the crim es of the crimes of the Nazi-allied Ustashe and the Muslim SS Handzar are little known in the West. Ironically, with US help, Franjo Tudjman was able to accompl ish last year what the Nazis and their World War II collaborators could not, nam ely the uprooting of the entire Serbian Krajina population which inhabited the r egion for our hundreds years. The World War II fascist regime of Ante Pavelic is being officially rehabilitated in Croatia today. Street and public buildings ar e being names after the architects of the Holocaust, Nazi-era currency revived, while the numbers and scope of the human carnage are being rewritten.

John Ranz
Chairman Survivors of the Buchenwald Camp

The Oath of Buchenwald (taken after the liberation of the camp by the surviving prisoners, on April 18, 1945). "We promise the millions of the dead comrades to devote the rest of our lives to the elimination of Nazism, Fascism, and their roots from the face of the earth, and to build a society based on peace and justice."

Oh sure, i believe you, CobaltBlue, the Serbs collaborated with the Nazis. Croats and Bosnians fought the Nazis. I think that you are not a Muslim but a Croatian who is defending the Fascist F. Tudjman. You're right, what a crude revisionism. Can you lend me your Book "Wastelands -- Historical Truth" written by F. Tudjman?


55 posted on 02/09/2003 5:00:31 AM PST by Karadjordje
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To: *balkans
56 posted on 02/09/2003 6:20:22 AM PST by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: Karadjordje
No, I am American. I've studied the Holocaust and the history of the Nazi party, so I know that attempts to paint any group as all Nazi or all victim are doomed to fail under the light of truth.

In every country the Nazis conquered, there were both collaborators and resisters. No ethnic group was without its heros and villains.

The Holocaust did happen.

Srebrenica did happen, too.

57 posted on 02/09/2003 8:01:26 AM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: Karadjordje
I am laughing at you because you don't want to talk about all the people murdered by Serbs. Why not?
58 posted on 02/09/2003 8:10:28 AM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: Karadjordje
It is a blot forever on the US military that they followed the orders of Bill Clinton. Illegal orders are not to be followed. Nuremberg proved the folly of that.
59 posted on 02/09/2003 8:15:50 AM PST by Trickyguy
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To: sneakypete
And you know that Bush has those cozy financial/oil relationships with Fox, how? You should get a job with the CIA if you have such info and can verify it.
60 posted on 02/09/2003 9:09:32 AM PST by Paulus Invictus
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To: CobaltBlue
Have you at all read my western articles (The Ottawa Citizen, The Economist, The Washington Post) about Nasir Oric's-Mudshahedin Islamist crimes in and around Srebrenica on Serbian civilians before any Serbian army came to Srebrenica in 1995?

This crimes are one of the most detailed documented crimes in the Bosnian war!. In his campaign he, his troops and his mudshahedin fighters butchered over 1,200 Serbian civilians and injured over 3,000 in and around Srebrenica municipalities. 52 Serbian villages had been destroyed. This crimes are well documented in the book "Chronicle of our graveyard'" ("Hronika naseg groblja") (<- click)


B e l g r a d e, Nov. 22 (Tanjug) - Former Commander of the Eastern Bosnian Muslim enclave of Srebrenica Naser Oric will be the first Muslim to be indicted by the Hague-based International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, the Belgrade weekly Telegraf said. The weekly quoted survivors' testimonies, collected in the book 'the chronicle of our graveyard' by Milivoje Ivanisevic, as saying that Oric's troops brutally killed more than 1,000 Serbs in the region of Srebrenica. Rajko Jovanovic from the village of Jazestica near Srebrenica said that in his village on August 8, 1992 Oric's soldiers broke Dragan Mladenovic' skull with an axe, beheaded Andjelko Mladenovic, killed another five people and torched 55 houses. Milojka Marinkovic said that on September 24, 1992, Oric's soldiers killed 30 inhabitants of the Serb village of Podravanje, including her father, two brothers, mother and five other relatives. Dozens of Serbs were killed in Srebrenica prisons controlled by Oric and according to the survivors' testimonies, the guards inscribed crosses on Serbs' bodies with sharp implements and poured salt over them. Muslim civilians who last year moved to the northwestern Bosnian town of Tuzla under U.N. protection say that each of them had to pay 100 German marks to Oric in order to leave Srebrenica.

Here another western article about Srebrenicas Muslim heroes before the Serbian army came:

"I met him in January, 1994, in his own home in Serb- surrounded Srebrenica. On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called 'Nasir Oric's Greatest Hits.'. 'We ambushed them,' he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen. The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: 'We launched those guys to the moon,' Oric boasted. When the footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: 'We killed 114 Serbs there.'"

Toronto Star, July 16, 1995

Alija Izetbegovic saluting "El Mujahedin" unit.

Bosnian Army Mudshahedin Emblem

Bosnian Army Mudshahedin Emblem

Bosnian Army Mudshahedin Emblem

Toronto Star: "'Nasir Oric's Greatest Hits.'. 'We ambushed them,' he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen. The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: 'We launched those guys to the moon,' Oric boasted. When the footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: 'We killed 114 Serbs there.'"

But keep on ignoring all this.


61 posted on 02/09/2003 9:28:36 AM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Karadjordje
What year is the report "MUSLIM ENCLAVE COMMANDER RESPONSIBLE FOR DEATH OF OVER 1,000 SERBS" from - 1995? Because it says:
"Muslim civilians who last year moved to the northwestern Bosnian town of Tuzla under U.N. protection say that each of them had to pay 100 German marks to Oric in order to leave Srebrenica."

The Muslim civilians would likely include men right? It doesn't say it was only women and children who were allowed to leave if they paid. The details on those missing from Srebrenica show some were last seen around Srebrenica a year or more it was taken over, so probably many had left Srebrenica and weren't even there in July 1995. The civilians who bribed their way out to get to Tuzla could have then traveled elsewhere in Bosnia or left it altogether.

62 posted on 02/09/2003 9:49:28 AM PST by joan
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To: DAPFE8900
bump to your comments
63 posted on 02/09/2003 9:50:43 AM PST by mel
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To: joan
November 23, 1995 from the Yugoslavian agency tanjug.

Sorry, I forgot to post the source: (<- Click)


64 posted on 02/09/2003 9:56:56 AM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Karadjordje
CobaltBlue wrote: I am laughing at you because you don't want to talk about all the people murdered by Serbs. Why not?

You never accused antisemitic war criminal and fascist revisionist Franjo Tudjman or war criminal Fundamentalist Islamist Bosnian leader Alija Izetbegovic.

late Croatian Presidant Franjo Tudjman in Knin in front of his ethnic cleansing troops

On May 24, 1992, the late Croatian leader Tudjman spoke to his nation from the Ban Jelacic Square [in Zagreb], saying literally:

"There would not have been a war had Croatia not wanted it, but we judged this was the only way to achieve independence."

You don't believe me - you have to because this are facts! Watch the Croatian "Goebbles-movies":

Franjo Tudjman's speech at the Ban Jelacic Square [in Zagreb, Croatia] in Serbian Part 1 (1,3 Megabyte, MPG-Format)(<- Click)

Franjo Tudjman's speech at the Ban Jelacic Square [in Zagreb, Croatia] in Serbian Part 2 (1,3 Megabyte, MPG-Format)(<- Click)

Franjo Tudjman's speech at the Ban Jelacic Square [in Zagreb, Croatia] in Serbian Part 3 (1,3 Megabyte, MPG-Format)(<- Click)

Franjo Tudjman's speech at the Ban Jelacic Square [in Zagreb, Croatia] in Serbian Part 4 (1,3 Megabyte, MPG-Format)(<- Click)


65 posted on 02/09/2003 11:51:58 AM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Pyro7480
Thanks for the very nice reply.
66 posted on 02/09/2003 12:29:35 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: Karadjordje
You have blown that weisel "greencobalt" right out of the water!!


Now, you have educated a whole group of freepers about EXACTLY what went on in the Balkans.

I am more convinced than ever that Croats ONLY can define themselves by their hatred of the Orthodox Serbs.

The Croats have no decent history... no heroes from WWII and no future as a country because the western countries have their economy by the short hairs!! Croatia is not a country it is an "economic opportunity" for western companies to exploit. Why am I not surprised?

67 posted on 02/09/2003 12:47:49 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: crazykatz
I wonder why CobaltBlue never mentioned Alija Izetbegovic's book "Islamic Declaration". It was written in 1970 by former Muslim president Alija Izetbegovic. In 1983 (time of old federal communist yugoslavia) he was sentenced to 13 years in prison for his islamistic, intolerant book. In 1990 "Islamic Declaration" was printed again in Sarajevo. Read now some passages:

Alija Izetbegovic

The following are excerpts from the book "The Islamic Declaration" ("Islamska deklaracija"), written by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, current President of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The book was reprinted by "BOSNA", Sarajevo, 1990, 127 pages.

"... Do we want the Muslim nations to cease moving in circles, to stop being dependent, backward and poverty-stricken;

do we want them to once again with a sure step climb the road of dignity and enlightment and to become masters of their own fate;

do we want the springs of courage, genius and virtue to come forth strongly once again;

then we must show the way which leads to that objective:

The implementation of Islam in all fields of individuals' personal lives, in family and in society, by renewal of the Islamic religious thought and creating a uniform Muslim community from Morocco to Indonesia. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 3

"... A nation, and an individual, who has accepted Islam is incapable of living and dying for another ideal after that fact. It is unthinkable for a Muslim to sacrifice himself for any tzar or ruler, no matter what his name may be, or for the glory of any nation, party or some such, because acting on the strongest Muslim instinct he recognizes in this a certain type of godlessness and idolatry. A Muslim can die only with the name of Allah on his lips and for the glory of Islam, or he may run away from the battlefield. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 4

"... Muslim nations will never accept anything that is explicitly against Islam, because Islam here is not merely a faith and the law, Islam has become love and compassion. He who rises against Islam will reap nothing but hate and resistance. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 17

"... In perspective, there is but one way out in sight: creation and gathering of a new intelligence which thinks and feels along Islamic lines. This intelligence would then raise the flag of the Islamic order and together with the Muslim masses embark into action to implement this order. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 18

"... The shortest definition of the Islamic order defines it as a unity of faith and law, upbringing and force, ideals and interests, spiritual community and state, free will and force. As a synthesis of these components, the Islamic order has two fundamental premises: an Islamic society and Islamic authority. The former is the essence, and the latter the form of an Islamic order. An Islamic society without Islamic power is incomplete and weak; Islamic power without an Islamic society is either a utopia or violence.

A Muslim generally does not exist as an individual. If he wishes to live and survive as a Muslim, he must create an environment, a community, an order. He must change the world or be changed himself. History knows of no true Islamic movement which was not at the same time a political movement as well. This is because Islam is a faith, but also a philosophy, a set of moral codes, an order of things, a style, an atmosphere - in a nutshell, an integral way of life. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 19

"... The first and foremost of such conclusions is surely the one on the incompatibility of Islam and non- Islamic systems. There can be no peace or coexistence between the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies and political institutions. ... Islam clearly excludes the right and possibility of activity of any strange ideology on its own turf. Therefore, there is no question of any laicistic principles, and the state should be an expression and should support the moral concepts of the religion. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 22

" Islam contains the principle of ummet, i.e. the tendency towards unification of all Muslims into a single community - a spiritual, cultural and political community. Islam is not a nationality, it is above nationalities. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 27

"... The upbringing of the nation, and especially the mass media - the press, TV and film - should be in the hands of people whose Islamic moral and intellectual authority is undisputed. ...

... Islamic renewal cannot be initiated without a religious, and cannot be successfully continued and concluded without a political revolution."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 32

"... Establishing of an Islamic order is thus shown as the ultimate act of democracy, because it means the implementation of the deepest desires of the Muslim nations and common man. One thing is certain: no matter what a part of the rich and the intelligence wants, the common man wants Islam and living in his Islamic community. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 33

"... In the struggle for an Islamic order all methods are permitted, except one - except crime. No-one has the right to smear the beautiful name of Islam and this struggle by uncontrolled and excessive use of violence. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 37

"... Islamic order may be implemented only in countries where Muslims represent the majority of the population. Without this majority, the Islamic order is reduced to authority only (because the other element is lacking - the Islamic society), and may turn into violence. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 37

"... the Islamic movement should and must start taking over the power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough to not only overthrow the existing non-Islamic, but also to build up a new Islamic authority. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 43

"... Pakistan was a general rehearsal of introducing Islamic order under modern conditions and on the present stage of development. ...

... The conclusions from the twenty-odd year of Pakistan's existence are clear enough. They are:

First, the struggle for Islamic order and a general reconstruction of the Muslim society can be successfully conducted only by experienced and seasoned individuals, aligned into a staunch and homogenous organization. This organization is no political party from the arsenal of the Western democracy; it is a movement based on Islamic ideology and with clear moral and ideological criteria of belonging;

Second, the struggle for an Islamic order today is a struggle to implement the essence of Islam, and this means that in practice one must ensure religious and moral upbringing of the people and provide for basic elements of social justice. At this time, forms are of secondary importance; and

Third, the functions of the Islamic republic are not to primarily declare equality of all men and brotherhood of all Muslims, but to struggle for some of these high moral principles in practice. The awakened Islam should in every community take into its own hands the flag for a more just social order and to clearly state that in struggling for Islam another war is being declared as well, the one against ignorance, injustice and poverty, a war without compromises and setbacks. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 45-46

"... In one of the thesis for an Islamic order today we have stated that it is a natural function of the Islamic order to gather all Muslims and Muslim communities throughout the world into one. Under present conditions, this desire means a struggle for creating a great Islamic federation from Morocco to Indonesia, from the tropical Africa to the Central Asia. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 46

"... Panislamism always came from the very heart of the Muslim peoples, nationalism was always imported stuff. ..."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 49

"... But, under the leadership of Zionists, started an action in Palestine which is not only inhumane and ruthless but also shortsighted and adventuresome. This politics takes in account only temporary ratio of power and forgets about overall ratio of power between Jews and Muslims in the world. This politics in Palestine is a provocation to all Muslims of the world. Jerusalem is not only a question of Palestinians, neither is it a question of Arabs only. It is a question of all the Muslim nations. TO KEEP JERUSALEM, THE JEWS WOULD HAVE TO DEFEAT ISLAM AND THE MUSLIMS, AND THAT - THANK GOD - IS OUTSIDE THEIR POWER."

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 53

"... We would like to distinguish between Jews and Zionists, but only if Jews themselves find strength to find the difference. We hope that the military victories, which they had against quarrelling Arab regimes, (not against Arabs or against Muslims) will not blur their minds. We hope that they will eliminate confrontation which they made by them- selves, so the new road is open to a life on the common ground of Palestine. If they, though, continue on the road of arrogance, which is more likely, then for the whole Islam movement, and FOR ALL MUSLIMS THERE IS BUT ONE SOLUTION: TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT, TO STRENGTHEN AND BROADEN IT, FROM DAY TO DAY, FROM YEAR TO YEAR, NO MATTER THE VICTIMS AND NO MATTER THE TIME it may last, until they are forced to RETURN EVERY INCH OF THE OCCUPIED LAND. EVERY NEGOTIATION AND EVERY COMPROMISE ON THIS FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE FOR OUR BROTHERS IN PALESTINE, WILL BE A TREASON WHICH MAY DESTROY THE VERY CORE OF THE MORAL SYSTEM OF OUR WORLD.

These are not new laws of our new Islam politics toward Christians and Jews, not new laws dictated by the new political situation. They are just the practical conclusions taken from the Islamic recognition of Christians and Jews which come right from the Qu'ran (Qu'ran, 29/45, 2/136, 5/47-49)

Izetbegovic, Alija, Islamska deklaracija, Sarajevo, 1990, p. 53-54.

Source: (<- Click)

Here are some pictures of Alija Izetbegovic with his Jihad friends.
Watch and enjoy it:

Izetbegovic salutes a Mudshahedin fighter in Bosnia

Izetbegovic together with Mudshahedin fighters in Bosnia

Holy Islamic fighters in Bosnia

Izetbegovic's Jihad army in Bosnia

Izetbegovic's Jihad army in Bosnia

A Mudshahedin in Bosnia

Holy warriors of Islam in Bosnia

Izetbegovic and his Islamic warriors in Bosnia

Mudshahedin fighters in Bosnia

Izetband Sheikh Abu Abdulrahman from 'El Mudshahedin' in Bosnia


68 posted on 02/09/2003 1:43:46 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: CobaltBlue
CobaltBlue, so tell me have you ever read "Islamic Declaration" after Tudjmans antisemitic, revisionistic and nazi-glorifing book "Wastelands -- Historical Truth"?

It's a nice Islamistic Fundamentalist and intolerant book written by your big hero Alija Izitbegovic in 1970.


69 posted on 02/09/2003 1:52:44 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Karadjordje

And, just think....all the muslims want to rule the world... imagine being a Christian Serb or Croat living in Bosnia and reading that garbage about having an islamic state in Bosnia. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH TO MAKE THE CHRISTIANS BAND TOGETHER AND GO TO WAR AGAINST THE MUSLIMs and fight tooth and nail to prevent such a thing from happening.

Well, we all know what REALLY happened now don't we?

70 posted on 02/09/2003 2:09:03 PM PST by crazykatz
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To: crazykatz
Hello crazykatz!

Do you remember when the western Media shoutet "The Serbs have occupied almost half of Bosnia!"
This statement is from a fascist. Even in Hitler's (In 1939 Hitler said: "I have three enemies, the Serbs, the Jews and the Communists.") nazi maps everyone can see that the Serbs lived in more then 50% of Bosnia for centuries.

Look at this maps:

Dr. Manfred Straka from Graz's "Sudostdeutsches Institut", Jugoslawien: Volkliche Gliederung, Mehrheitsgebiete, 1940

Legende zur Volklichen Gliederung von 1940

Or look at this newer maps from the New York Times or from the National Geographic:

The New York Times, "Demographics", 26.11.1994

National Geographic Vol. 189, No.6, "In focus - Bosnia", Juni 1996

Now compare it with the Mudshahedin map:

Map of an "Islamic Bosnia" drawn from Islamist Fundamentalists


71 posted on 02/09/2003 2:49:50 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: crazykatz
Dear crazykatz,

Maybe if the Serbs hadn't shelled Zadar or Osijek than they together with the Croatians could have taken care of the Muslims.

You're right about the danger of Islam in Bosnia though.

Croatians and Serbians should put aside past differences and focus on the twin threats of Western meddling in their governments, and Islamic expansionism on their borders.

be seeing you,

foreign policy wonk

post 0050
72 posted on 02/09/2003 2:51:48 PM PST by foreign policy wonk (Take down the House of Saud!)
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To: Karadjordje
What CobaltBlue does not understand is the cause of the conflicts during the last decade in the balkans. He doesn't realize that the war was forced on the Serbs by the descendants of Hitler's allies. It was a direct continuation of the battles that ended in 1945 with the end of WWII. The Croats, Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo Albanians were more than loyal allies of Adolf Hitler. Their goals, ideology and traitorous behaviour during the 1940's and the 1990's were the same. What he's lamenting about is that the Serbs were actually defeating those resurected Nazi-allies at the begining of the conflict in the 1990's. Untill NATO rescued them from total military defeat. They were protected by Hitler and used the Wehrmacht-umbrella to commit genocide. Sad thing is, that NATO choosed to play Hitler's role nowadays in the balkans.
73 posted on 02/09/2003 2:52:05 PM PST by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: Karadjordje
Your second map is not a demographic map, but rather a map outlining front lines.

Thank you for posting the maps BTW.

be seeing you,

foreign policy wonk

post 0051
74 posted on 02/09/2003 2:53:41 PM PST by foreign policy wonk (Take down the House of Saud!)
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To: DestroyEraseImprove
What you're excluding is the fact that Croatia was led by those who fought Hitler, men like Bobetko and Tudjman.

There were some rightwing nationalists, yes, and some crimes were committed. But to equate them to the Ustasha doesn't make sense as the bulk of them fought the Ustasha.

Nothing in the Balkans is black and white. That's for certain.

You're also excluding Serbian Chetnik collaboration, particularly in Bosnia and Croatia.

Mihajlovic (is that the correct spelling?) was the least tainted by collaboration, as he actually fought the Germans.

The further West you went, the deeper the collaboration was.

The Chetniks under Djujic had as their leader a man who was a disciple of Ljotic, the collaborationist leader of the Zbor party.

Collaboration occurred on all sides.

The Serbs of Croatia and Bosnia fought both as collaborators and resistors.

Parallels to WW2 don't work.

be seeing you,

foreign policy wonk

post 0052
75 posted on 02/09/2003 2:57:43 PM PST by foreign policy wonk (Take down the House of Saud!)
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To: foreign policy wonk
Maybe if the Serbs hadn't shelled Zadar or Osijek than they together with the Croatians could have taken care of the Muslims.

Maybe if the Serbs wouldn't had accepted to be protected by the traitorous and lying UN helmets in 1991/92 and instead had chosen to settle the scores once and for all with the resurected Nazi-allies at that time, we would see a Serbian state including the Krajina and most of Bosnia. The Croats could have had their part of Hercegovina as compensation and the rest of muslim bosnia if they wanted. Tudman said the bosnian muslims are croats anyways.

76 posted on 02/09/2003 3:04:22 PM PST by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: DestroyEraseImprove
The Vance Plan cemented Serb gains in Croatia for a few years.

Milosevic decided that they were expendable and sold them down the river, allowing Croatian forces to run rampant.

I still can't believe the refugee Serbs didn't lynch him when they got to Belgrade.

Saying this, Serb and Croat intellects realize that they no longer are enemies, as the danger of Islamic expansionism and western meddling is a much larger danger.

They were once united against the Turks on Field of Blackbirds, and in the revolts in Hercegovina.

Now, they're united again.

be seeing you,

foreign policy wonk

post 0054
77 posted on 02/09/2003 3:08:08 PM PST by foreign policy wonk (Take down the House of Saud!)
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To: foreign policy wonk
What you're excluding is the fact that Croatia was led by those who fought Hitler, men like Bobetko and Tudjman.

Nothing contradictory here. Tudman and Bobetko converted to Ustashluk in their old days.

The further West you went, the deeper the collaboration was.

Maybe that has something to do with the fact, that he further West you went, the more intense was the genocide perpetrated against serbs in that area.

Collaboration occurred on all sides.

Your attempt to equalize some minor serb collaboration in ares in which they were exterminated with the open and direct ideological support of Hitler by the Nazi-puppet called NDH fails miserably. Take a look at the map of Yugoslavia during the occupation and the states that were created by the third Reich and their borders. Serbia was decimated and the only state under military administration. That means, Serbia was ruled directly from Berlin. Zagreb on the other hand made the decision to exterminate it's serbian population within the borders of NDH on it's own.

78 posted on 02/09/2003 3:30:01 PM PST by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: DestroyEraseImprove
Croatian Nationalism is not equivalent to "Ustashism" like Serbian nationalism is not equivalent to the Ljotic brand.

It's a common misperception.

As for WW2 collaboration, the Croatian puppet state was divided into two zones of occupation, one Italian and one German.

The Serbian state was under German military occupation.

This isn't an attempt to equalize the level of collaboration, please refrain from making assumptions like that.

The point I'm making is that the picture in the Balkans isn't black and white, as has been portrayed on this discussion.

What's important is that there are new enemies and new alliances at stake now. History is the poison of the Balkans, whether it be the slaughter of Serbs in WW2, or the slaughter of Bosnians, or Macedonians, etc.

The lines have shifted.

Those in the know in both Belgrade and Zagreb see that.

Visionaries need to be recognized, and history needs to be tossed.

Don't become a prisoner of history.

Radical Islam is the clear and present danger.

be seeing you,

foreign policy wonk

post 0056
79 posted on 02/09/2003 3:36:13 PM PST by foreign policy wonk (Take down the House of Saud!)
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To: foreign policy wonk
Tudman sold the Hercegovina Croats down the river. They are forced to live in this silly moron called 'Federation'. I still believe Milosevic and Tudman had a deal worked out regarding Krajina and Bosnia-Hercegovina. Guess Tudman became to greedy or the US made him an offer he couldn't refuse. We'll have to wait a few years or decades, but fact is that the status quo now is only a transition for the 'final' solution.
80 posted on 02/09/2003 3:45:27 PM PST by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: DestroyEraseImprove
Thank you for posting that excellent opinion, my friend!

I concur.

Bosnia is a problem that will fester until it is solved.

be seeing you,

foreign policy wonk

post 0059
81 posted on 02/09/2003 3:50:11 PM PST by foreign policy wonk (Take down the House of Saud!)
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To: foreign policy wonk
The more I think about it, the more I think Tudman screwed up the deal between him and Milosevic. Guess he couldn't resist the temptation to 'defeat' the Krajina Serbs. When Slobo realized that Tudman wasn't going to respect their agreement and further had direct political and military support of the US and Germany he backpedaled. Tried damage delimitation, by forcing the Bosnian Serbs to accept the proposed peace plan, but failed. Finally, the Krajina Serbs were ordered to withdraw and he reached at least to establish the Bosnian Serb Republic at Dayton. Or maybe he was just a treasonous coward without courage and vision for his nation. Who knows.
82 posted on 02/09/2003 4:01:54 PM PST by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: DestroyEraseImprove
Thank you for posting those awesome insights my friend!

I think they had a deal as well. Evidence points to it.

be seeing you,

foreign policy wonk

post 0060
83 posted on 02/09/2003 4:11:26 PM PST by foreign policy wonk (Take down the House of Saud!)
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To: foreign policy wonk
foreign policy wonk wrote:
"Your second map is not a demographic map, but rather a map outlining front lines."

If you look at the title of the New York Times article you can read "DEMOGRAPHICS" and further reading shows "The South Slavs, and Others: Where They Live"

foreign policy wonk wrote:
You're also excluding Serbian Chetnik collaboration, particularly in Bosnia and Croatia.

Mihajlovic (is that the correct spelling?) was the least tainted by collaboration, as he actually fought the Germans.




Do you know how many Chetnicks had been liquidated by the Tito communists?
Can you tell me why the Tito Communists hated Chetnicks?


84 posted on 02/09/2003 4:16:03 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: foreign policy wonk
Those in the know in both Belgrade and Zagreb see that.

Visionaries need to be recognized, and history needs to be tossed.

Don't become a prisoner of history.

Radical Islam is the clear and present danger.

Why then is Zagreb supporting the muslim terrorist KLA and the albanian demands for an independent Kosovo?

The enemy of my enemy......guess the visionaries in Zagreb have only one vision: a humiliated and defeated Serbia on her knees. My advice to them: read some history books and don't forget the Serbs have not been knocked out - they are waiting in their corner for a better coach and the gong for the next round.

85 posted on 02/09/2003 4:16:36 PM PST by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: foreign policy wonk
I think they had a deal as well. Evidence points to it.

So, who screwed up their deal in your oppinion?

86 posted on 02/09/2003 4:20:41 PM PST by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: Karadjordje
If you are a typical Serbian, then Serbians are the craziest people I've ever met.
87 posted on 02/09/2003 4:21:01 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: CobaltBlue
CobaltBlue wrote:
"If you are a typical Serbian, then Serbians are the craziest people I've ever met."

Why? Because I'am telling the truth?


88 posted on 02/09/2003 4:25:31 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Karadjordje
Did you ever read the book, Flatland? There are only two dimensions in Flatland, so people in Flatland can only see things in two dimensions. If a sphere is in front of them, they see a point. If a cube is in front of them, they see a square. It's impossible for them to understand a world in three dimensions.

Your mind is so poisoned and so polarized that you only see part of the truth, but think you see the whole truth.

I don't think there is anything I can do for you. So no point in continuing this exchange.
89 posted on 02/09/2003 4:32:13 PM PST by CobaltBlue
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To: Karadjordje
Many Chetniks were liquidated by the Partisans, as exemplified by the Battle of the Neretva when the Hercegovina Chetniks in alliance with the Ustasha, the Germans, and Italians attempted to smash the Partisans.

Instead, the Chetniks were demolished.

Many Chetniks then began to cross over to the Partisan side.

The Partisans, Chetniks, and Ustasha were all ferocious fighters and spared no one.

As for your second map, it shows the frontlines circa 1993-1994.

be seeing you,

foreign policy wonk

post 0061
90 posted on 02/09/2003 4:37:28 PM PST by foreign policy wonk (Take down the House of Saud!)
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To: DestroyEraseImprove
There is no support in Zagreb for an independent Kosovo.

The current socialist administration propped up by the State Dep't supports the OSCE and UN moves.

Those in the know, those good conservatives in both Belgrade and Zagreb, know the danger lies not with each other, but with those I've already mentioned.

be seeing you,

foreign policy wonk

post 0062
91 posted on 02/09/2003 4:39:27 PM PST by foreign policy wonk (Take down the House of Saud!)
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To: CobaltBlue
If you are a typical Serbian, then Serbians are the craziest people I've ever met.

Do you want to engage in serious discussion or spout racist crap here? Or are you just bewildered about the events in Srebrenica before 1995? Freerepublic is always good to learn something, isn't it? Otherwise you would still not be able to say who Nasir Oric is and what he did in and arround Srebrenica before that famous firefight that is refered to in the western media as a 'massacre'.

92 posted on 02/09/2003 4:39:38 PM PST by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: DestroyEraseImprove

be seeing you,

foreign policy wonk

post 0063
93 posted on 02/09/2003 4:40:53 PM PST by foreign policy wonk (Take down the House of Saud!)
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To: Karadjordje

7th SS Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen" (<- click)

7th SS Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen" (<- click)

7th SS Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen" (<- click)

7th SS Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen" (<- click)

foreign policy, who did all this Muslim Albanian, Croatian, Muslim Bosnian and German Volksdeutsche SS hunt?


94 posted on 02/09/2003 4:46:14 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: CobaltBlue
It's impossible for them to understand a world in three dimensions.

Some Serbs see the world in four dimensions. The three you mentioned plus the historical perspective. How many dimensions of the world are we getting from CNN? I mean , have you ever heard of CNN telling the real story about Srebrenica, the surounding vilages, Nasir Oric and his minions killing and rampaging there for years?

95 posted on 02/09/2003 4:48:56 PM PST by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: Karadjordje
Sorry wrong titles to symbols:


7th SS Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen"

13th Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Handschar" kroatische nr1

21st Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS "Skanderbeg"

23rd Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS "Kama" kroatische nr2


96 posted on 02/09/2003 4:49:11 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Karadjordje
The Prinz Eugen Division was made up of "Volksdeutsche".

Their primary targets were the communist Partisans.

They took part in the legendary Battle of Neretva in 1943.

On the Axis side was:

The 7th Prinz Eugen

Three German Wehrmacht Divisions

One Ustasha Division

The Hercegovina Chetniks under Bachovich and Jevdjevich

They faced off against the Partisans.
97 posted on 02/09/2003 4:51:31 PM PST by foreign policy wonk (Take down the House of Saud!)
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To: foreign policy wonk

I think so, too.

98 posted on 02/09/2003 4:52:07 PM PST by DestroyEraseImprove
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To: DestroyEraseImprove
Cobalt Blue wrote:
"Some Serbs see the world in four dimensions. The three you mentioned plus the historical perspective. How many dimensions of the world are we getting from CNN? I mean , have you ever heard of CNN telling the real story about Srebrenica, the surounding vilages, Nasir Oric and his minions killing and rampaging there for years?"

Sure I am a evil, mad serb who hates Muslims and wants to butcher and to eat them...WOW...what a perfect racist propaganda.

You're asking why no massmurder of serbs are mentioned in NWO Propganda channels like CNN? Read this Washington Post article about how the CIA and the military want to manipulate your emotions and objective reasoning (Regarding Kosovo Crisis):

Wednesday, 28 July 1999

	Group will battle propaganda abroad

	By Ben Barber

The Clinton administration begins work today on a new International
Public Information group designed to "influence foreign audiences" in
support of U.S. foreign policy and to counteract propaganda by enemies of
the United States.

U.S. military, diplomatic and intelligence officials will participate in
today's meeting of a core group to set up the IPI system of coordinating
all overseas information among the various branches of the U.S.

The aim is "to enhance U.S. security, bolster America's economic
prosperity and to promote democracy abroad," according to the IPI Core
Group Charter, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Times.

However, the charter also says that IPI control over "international
military information" is intended to "influence the emotions, motives,
objective reasoning and ultimately the behavior of foreign governments,
organizations, groups and individuals."

The charter makes clear that IPI activities "are overt and address
foreign audiences only." But it also says domestic information should be
"deconflicted" and "synchronized" so as not to send a contradictory

The Clinton administration also hopes to encourage the United Nations and
other international organizations to make "effective use of IPI . . . in
support of multilateral peacekeeping," the charter says.

Shocked by confusion during military missions in Kosovo and Haiti, when
no U.S. agency was empowered to coordinate U.S. efforts to sell its
policies and counteract bad press abroad, President Clinton on April 30
issued a secret Presidential Decision Direction --PDD 68 -- ordering the
creation of IPI.

"In the old days, the U.S. Information Agency and State were the main
agencies for communicating internationally," said an administration

"With the information revolution, all agencies now have the ability to
communicate internationally and interact with foreign populations," said
the official, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

"IPI is a mechanism that has been established to make sure that these
various actors are working in a coordinated manner."

The charter insists that information distributed through IPI should be
designed not "to mislead foreign audiences" and that information programs
"must be truthful." But numerous clauses in the document have an
Orwellian ring that gives the impression of a vast, coordinated
propaganda operation.

"The objective of IPI is to synchronize the informational objectives,
themes and messages that will be projected overseas . . . to prevent and
mitigate crises and to influence foreign audiences in ways favorable to
the achievement of U.S. foreign policy objectives," the charter says.

U.S. officials, and the text of the charter, explicitly state that the
new information policy will not be used as a propaganda weapon against
the American public --which is prohibited by U.S. law.

However, since foreign media reports often get played back in U.S. media,
it will likely be impossible to prevent a backwash of the pro-U.S.
information into America.

The charter recognizes this by calling for the government's domestic
public affairs activities to be coordinated with its foreign IPI efforts.

Information aimed at domestic audiences should "be coordinated,
integrated, deconflicted and synchronized with the [IPI Core Group] to
achieve a synergistic effect for [government] strategic information
activities," the charter says.

The administration official said that the IPI system is "geared towards
prevention and mitigation of crises" and will remain active in peacetime
"so we won't need to reconstitute the entire thing all the time."

Mr. Clinton's PDD 68, issued with no fanfare during the Kosovo bombing
campaign, orders top officials from the Defense, State, Justice, Commerce
and Treasury departments and the Central Intelligence Agency and FBI to
meet and set up the core group.

Junior level officials from those agencies were to hold the first IPI
planning session today at the State Department. By Friday, the IPI core
group is required to issue a statement of its policies, programs and
scope of its work.

Next Wednesday, senior-level officials meet under the chairmanship of
Morton Halperin, policy planning director of the State Department, to
firm up the IPI system.

While a large number of government agencies are involved, knowledge of
the IPI effort has been closely held.

Aides to top officials in the State Department, USIA and Voice of America
all said yesterday they knew little about the concept apart from a vague
outline of its mission.

The IPI core group is also instructed by the charter to arrange "training
exercises at the National Defense University, National Foreign Affairs
Training Center, the Service War Colleges" and other institutions.

And its activities could go beyond broadcasts and press releases. The IPI
core group is ordered by the presidential directive to "assist [U.S.
government] efforts in defeating adversaries."

"The intelligence community will play a crucial role . . . for
identifying hostile foreign propaganda and deception that targets the
U.S.," the charter says.

	Copyright 1999 News World Communications, Inc.


99 posted on 02/09/2003 5:05:38 PM PST by Karadjordje
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To: Paulus Invictus
And you know that Bush has those cozy financial/oil relationships with Fox, how?

Gimme a bleeping break! Ali Bubba calls Fox a "old friend",and Jeb Bush even used to vacation with the previous president of Mexico and his brother. You know,the president who is under indictment for stealing billions,and in exile in Europe? The same one whose brother is in jail in Mexico now for being a major drug dealer and for murder? I believe it was Jeb's Mexican wife who had the contacts there,but I'm not positive of that.

All this is also the reason Ali Bubba refuses to address illegal aliens or closing the border. The family plan is to run Jeb's son,George "The Mexican" Bush for president in the future,and the Bush family wants all the Mexican voters they can get living here.

You should get a job with the CIA if you have such info and can verify it.

Oh yeah,this stuff is really a big-time secret. Jeb's connection to corrupt Mexican politicians who are drug dealers,murderers,and thieves has been written up in various newspapers in the past,including one in Miami. Of course,none of this would mean anything to you,because you would automatically dismiss it as "left wing lies".

100 posted on 02/09/2003 5:07:53 PM PST by sneakypete
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