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Silver as Money back in Circulation
Sierra Times ^

Posted on 02/13/2003 11:08:05 AM PST by BlackJack

A small company in the Ozarks is offering business the opportunity to bring Silver Money back into circulation, and has chosen NORFED’s Liberty Dollars for its vehicle. Ozark Monetary Services of Berryville, Arkansas, has created a program that ensures that any business that accepts Liberty Dollars cannot lose money for doing so… and it’s gaining popularity across the country, with some potentially heavy hitters looking it over closely.

OMS Spokesman David Cato confirms that the company has had discussions with a couple of nationally known marketing giants, but declined to offer specifics.

“What we’re doing is promoting the program to all businesses, and it’s so simple that it’s basically a no-brainer,” says David. “Any business that signs up for the program agrees to accept Liberty Dollars, and return them to their customers in change.

This results in two things happening: first, the customer will in all likelihood return to the store to spend the money again, and other customers who hear about the new money will come to learn more and get some for themselves. For each Liberty Dollar given out in change, the merchant retains a dollar in Federal Reserve money, what we’re all used to.”

Asked about the possibility of merchants being overwhelmed by Liberty Dollars, which can be traded with customers, but can’t be deposited to most banks or used to pay government debts, David explained, “That’s what the OMS Program is all about; anytime they get too many to keep in local circulation, OMS will buy their Liberty Dollars back from them at full face value.”

The community benefits, as well, since OMS and others who promote the Liberty Dollar will occasionally offer the local public the opportunity to exchange their regular money for Liberty Dollars at a discount, gaining as much as ten percent in spendable value on the amount they choose to exchange!

Christmas and other holidays, as well as graduation time, are likely candidates for the special exchanges. The result is an increase in sales, and thereby an increase in profits, for those businesses who participate in the program, and there are even ways for merchants to purchase them at discount in order to make even more money while making change.

Liberty Dollars are paper “Silver Certificates” which are backed by silver, and there’s even a solid silver ten-dollar “Silver Liberty” piece. Merchants subscribing to the program can accept either the Silver Liberty, or the Liberty Dollar Silver Certificate, which is similar to the “bills” we’re accustomed to and more easily carried around. Either way, customers are almost certain to return to where they got the new money when they need something that merchant sells, so customer loyalty is a direct result of the program.

As for cost, there isn’t any. Merchants can sign up without any cost, and enjoy all of the benefits and guarantees, which are made in writing.

“This isn’t about making money,” says David, “although that’s one benefit of it, and the merchants who participate will see some pretty impressive increases in their sales and profits. What it’s really about is getting real value back into the hands of the American People, and making that value an exchangeable commodity in today’s marketplace.”

Interested businesses can contact OMS at 877-561-7263, or by email at:

alfii@cox-internet.com. OMS is a spin-off and partner of ALFII.com, the online financial-privacy club that offers alternatives to conventional banking, even down to an anonymous MasterCard and a way to replace your existing checking account.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News
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1 posted on 02/13/2003 11:08:05 AM PST by BlackJack
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: TonyRo76
Uh oh, something more valuable and cherished than Federal Notes ?

This catching on just shows that the public can distinquish between value and ...............

I'm at a loss of words to describe US Federal Notes.
3 posted on 02/13/2003 11:37:12 AM PST by imawit
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To: BlackJack
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Constitution SPECIFICALLY prohibit banks and states from creating their own currencies ??
4 posted on 02/13/2003 11:40:36 AM PST by Centurion2000 (Chance favors the prepared mind.)
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To: imawit
That's all we need, carrying around lumps of metal in our pockets for money. The GOP buried the Democrats' "free silver" nonsense a century ago.
5 posted on 02/13/2003 11:42:05 AM PST by Grand Old Partisan
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To: BlackJack
This was what I was looking for

Article I
Section 10.
No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts ; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

6 posted on 02/13/2003 11:47:05 AM PST by Centurion2000 (Chance favors the prepared mind.)
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To: Centurion2000
Your right, but that was a long time ago. Time to move on, nothing to see here.


7 posted on 02/13/2003 11:50:10 AM PST by unixfox (Close the borders, problem solved !)
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To: BlackJack
I agree with the poster who said that this seems unconstitutional. Also (perhaps more importantly) these "silver dollars" seem to be every bit as valuable as US dollars -- but are sometimes worth 10% more. Uh, basic economics? Free money out of nowhere? 10% return without really making a bonified investment? Paging, Mr. Ponzi.
8 posted on 02/13/2003 11:51:07 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: imawit; All
Ultimately not even to wipe one's rear(like Weimar notes and French Assignats)---guess we'd better spend them before/as rest of the world is finally waking up.

Did you all see AG squirm and waffle as our Reps grilled him yesterday??

9 posted on 02/13/2003 11:53:21 AM PST by IGNATIUS
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To: Centurion2000
make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts

Looks like the states are forbidden by law to accept fiat. At $10 an oz they got a pretty good markup built in, last I saw silver was about $4.60
10 posted on 02/13/2003 11:53:56 AM PST by steve50 (Nolan in 04)
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: Centurion2000
Your quote would seem to grant a specific exemption for gold and silver coin.
12 posted on 02/13/2003 11:56:53 AM PST by Oberon (I think I need a nap.)
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To: steve50
Looks like the states are forbidden by law to accept fiat

I wonder if anyone has tested that.
OTH This says nothing about banks, which issued notes (paper money) prior to the Civil War.

13 posted on 02/13/2003 12:00:46 PM PST by NathanR
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To: NathanR
I'm thinking of selling some property. Should bring about twenty ozs of gold eagles with a face value of $50 each. I wonder how the IRS is going to react to this idea.
14 posted on 02/13/2003 12:12:28 PM PST by steve50 (Censorship, the last resort of weak minds)
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To: Oberon
Your quote would seem to grant a specific exemption for gold and silver coin

True, but they are selling paper money, not coin.

15 posted on 02/13/2003 12:27:36 PM PST by Centurion2000 (Chance favors the prepared mind.)
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To: Centurion2000
Is the satae doing this or just some people who decided they would trade other forms of currency? If individules want to make this sort of agreement then it seems perfectly legal.
16 posted on 02/13/2003 12:35:27 PM PST by Khepera (tag... your it!)
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To: Centurion2000; unixfox
Well, it is being issued by a private company. So not unconstitutional. Actually not a big deal either. When credit cards were new, people might have wondered if they were "creating currency" or "unconstitutional" as well. But they weren't and aren't.

However, I don't see the point, since nobody is making money off of this. And you have to trust that the private company will indeed "buy them back". If that company goes under, or takes the money and runs, then people and merchants are stuck with the paper. Or maybe the company figures they will take people federal dollars in exchange for "Liberty" dollars and just bank the federal dollars and earn interest. When someone wants to exchange the Liberty dollars back for federal dollars, they do so. Which means if enough people signed up for this, the company could make money and survive...but what is the point? Why would people want these darn "dollars" anyway?

17 posted on 02/13/2003 12:45:33 PM PST by dark_lord
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To: IGNATIUS
guess we'd better spend them

or trade them for something real while that's still possible. Anyway that's what Gspan wants. Soooooo much moola, you don't mind thrown down a few just to do it even.

Sooooo much mooola that there's no sense in hoarding, saving, collecting.

....... then go get some credit.

18 posted on 02/13/2003 12:49:45 PM PST by imawit
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To: steve50
The price of the metal in the Sacagawea dollar coin, based on the copper, manganese, zinc, and nickel prices on December 5, 2001, is about 1.2 cents. You want to talk about a markup, let's start there.
19 posted on 02/13/2003 12:53:34 PM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: Grand Old Partisan
Democrats' "free silver" nonsense a century ago.

... aaaaaaaaaaaaah, I think ... it's 2003 this year.

Time's change ? Don't things change ?

20 posted on 02/13/2003 12:54:41 PM PST by imawit
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To: dark_lord
People would want these darn dollars because they are interested in returning the US to a value-backed currency system, instead of a debt-backed one.

Take a look at the annual report of your local Federal Reserve Bank. They have "assets" that back up their issuance of the Federal Reserve Notes, but the vast, vast majority, well over 95%, of those "assets" are interest-bearing debt owed to the bank by the US Government.

We are paying interest to the Federal Reserve Banks for the use of our cash.
21 posted on 02/13/2003 12:56:39 PM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: Centurion2000
Hmmm. This could get very ticklish. Technically, this means that if I borrow a silver coin from you and write you a receipt for it, I've broken the law. That's all that real money is, you know... a receipt for real currency (i.e. coin or bullion) on deposit.
22 posted on 02/13/2003 1:02:48 PM PST by Oberon (I think I need a nap.)
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To: Oberon
Our "money" or federal reserve notes, are not backed by anything resembling gold or silver. They are simply monetized debt, backed by the ability of the government to collect taxes in the future (i.e. the full faith and credit of the United States Government). Since there is no way to pay back both the monetized debt (FRNs) and the interest, the Gov't is technically bankrupt and has been since they ended the gold standard.

Aside from that, even if these people evade gov't intervention, they will run smack into Gresham's Law, which will crush them like a bug.
23 posted on 02/13/2003 1:39:07 PM PST by IMHO
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To: IMHO
Our "money" or federal reserve notes, are not backed by anything resembling gold or silver.

That's why I used the term "real money" in the message to which you were replying. I do understand the distinction... but thank you for clarifying.

But what, if I may ask, is Gresham's Law, and how does it apply?

24 posted on 02/13/2003 1:54:48 PM PST by Oberon (I think I need a nap.)
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To: Oberon
Greshams Law: The bad money drives out the good.

Example, in 1964 the mint stopped producing silver coins and started producing base-metal coins. People hoarded saved the silver coins and put them away, so they ceased to be in circulation. People will pay with the money of least acceptable value before they pay with the money of most value.

I believe both the first money act of 1792 AND the Constitution proscribes death for anyone who debases the current coin of the United States.

25 posted on 02/13/2003 2:09:19 PM PST by Jason_b
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To: IMHO
You are correct.

The current US "dollar" is not really constitutional money at all.
If one looks at the paper in their wallet they will see Federal Reserve Note written on the top.
Notes are a promise to pay.

The US was taken off the domestic gold standard in 1933, the domestic silver standard in 1965 (90% silver coins in 1964...1965-1970 were 40% silver half-dollars) and finally the foreign dollar gold redemption in 1971.

All paper money currently issued by the Federal Reserve is backed up by nothing but empty promises and hot air.

Liberty dollars are issued by NORFED. http://www.norfed.org

Their $10 silver certificates are backed by 1 troy ounce of silver. NORFED therefore declares a dollar to be 1/10 troy oz silver.

The US currently has three different values for what a dollar is.

1.) A federal reserve note. Worthless piece of paper.

2.) Dollar coin. Currently the Sacagawea coin, or "brass buck", the Susan B. Anthony coin, or the Eisenhower dollar. These all have various values for the metal content, but the "brass bucks" are what are currently being issued and the metal content is only worth 1.2 cents.

3.) Silver Eagle dollars. 1 troy oz silver. Current spot market value is $4.56 to sell to the coin dealers, but anywhere from $7-9 to purchase from the coin dealer.

All the above US issued are legal tender money, but only one is Constitutional.



NORFED silver certificates are fully redeemable for the amount of silver they are backed by. If the market value of the silver were to go to $20 troy oz then you could redeem your current $10 certificate for the promised 1 troy oz coin.

You can't say the same for Federal Reserve Note.
26 posted on 02/13/2003 2:13:13 PM PST by Chewbacca
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To: Grand Old Partisan
Ever heard of e-gold or goldmoney.com? The gold stays in the depository, not your pocket. Members can electronically transfer title to physical gold to one another. If a bank took deposits of gold coin, it would be possible to write checks as before, to account for the coin using the same computers that account for dollars.
27 posted on 02/13/2003 2:17:33 PM PST by Jason_b
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To: IMHO
Looks like the fedgov has been bankrupt since March 1933 which was around the time Roosevelt seized all the gold. An interesting debate going on in some legal reform groups is whether we even have anything that would be considered "lawful money".
28 posted on 02/13/2003 2:18:20 PM PST by american spirit
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To: Centurion2000
I forget which federalist it was, probably 44 or 69, that talks about why the states are prohibited from coining money. The writer of that federalist said it was more a matter of not wanting to have all sorts of sizes and shapes and weights in circulation. That's all. So the task of coining was left to the federal government that would control the size and shapes of the denominations and keep them uniform. If the states did decide to coin, it would not be a violation of the rights of people as long as the pieces contained the correct amount of silver or gold. For Congress to impose on the people base-metal tokenage, and Federal Reserve Notes has been an unthinkable violation of the people's Constitutional rights. It has resulted in massive wealth transfers and violations of property rights. That is not what the founders intended for us.

29 posted on 02/13/2003 2:24:50 PM PST by Jason_b
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To: american spirit
Federalist 69 towards the end makes clear that proscribing rules concerning the nation's currency is a power the president does not have. FDR was a tyrant pure and simple and the confiscation was unconstitutional.


30 posted on 02/13/2003 2:28:30 PM PST by Jason_b
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To: american spirit
Yes we still have lawful money but it trades at a premium to the current paper scam. Just like it did during the Civil War.

Silver Eagle dollar 1 troy oz coins are anywhere from $7-9 each.
Gold Eagle dollar coins are minted as 1/10, 1/4, 1/2 and 1 troy oz coins. The values on the coins are $5, $10 (should be $12.50), $25, and $50. A 1 Troy oz gold eagle can be purchased at about $15-25 over the current spot gold price.
(Smaller coins have higher premium because they can be used in jewelry as necklaces and rings.)

That would put real constitutional money as $1 real money is equal to about $7.25 in Fed Notes. Or a 7.25:1 ratio in exchange.
31 posted on 02/13/2003 2:31:29 PM PST by Chewbacca
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To: Chewbacca
The 7.25:1 ratio was only for gold at the current spot market gold price.

For silver the market values the spot price at 1:4.56 currently.

Thus silver is undervalued and a screaming buy of a life time for investment purposes!
32 posted on 02/13/2003 2:34:36 PM PST by Chewbacca
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To: steve50
This ensured the right of anyone who had money coming to him to demand payment in gold and silver coin. You can thank Roger Sherman for this being in the Constitution. He made sure it was put in after some business associate tried to pay a debt to him in depreciated paper money of another state. Roger didn't want depreciated paper money, he wanted the full value and that could only be had in gold and silver. So Sherman secured to all citizens the right to take payment in gold and silver coin. Of course the states took taxes in gold and silver coin, not paper, not banknotes. But not because the Constitution proscribed it, but because paper was never considered as good as gold or silver and it was foolish to take paper when you can have gold. Sherman ensured to the people the same right that the state governments had, to refuse paper. It is very specific. Gold and silver COIN.
33 posted on 02/13/2003 2:40:01 PM PST by Jason_b
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To: Chewbacca
"All paper money currently issued by the Federal Reserve is backed up by nothing but empty promises..."

Would you please inform me exactly what a Federal Reserve Note promises me, an empty promise though it may be?

34 posted on 02/13/2003 2:46:45 PM PST by Jason_b
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To: Jason_b
Have you read The Coming Battle by M.W.Walbert?

It was published in 1899.

Dry reading I admit but it is very illuminating in how our forefathers attempted to hold back central banking and the devaluation of our currency.

The day Kennedy was buried the first federal reserve notes were released to start replacing the current, at that time, 1963, the silver certificates that were in circulation. Kennedy and Lincoln both tried to prevent a paper currency, see what happened to them.

Article I section 10 was circumvented by the Federal Reserve Act.
35 posted on 02/13/2003 3:08:39 PM PST by BabsC
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To: Centurion2000
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Constitution SPECIFICALLY prohibit banks and states from creating their own currencies ??

  OK, I'll correct you. The Constitution prohibits states, and only states, from coining money. Ithaca, NY (yes, the City of Evil) has taken advantage of this to coin their own money - it's possible other cities have as well. It used to be fairly common for large companies to pay workers in company scrip - effectively their own money.

  So, as long as this company isn't a state, there's no Constitutional problem.

Drew Garrett

36 posted on 02/13/2003 3:13:48 PM PST by agarrett
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To: BabsC
I actually have had the book for a couple years. Have not found the time to read it though.

Read somewhere that around the time of 1964, as they were phasing out silver, some people were careful to take their silver certificates to the treasury to get the silver dollar. The day came when instead of giving out silver dollars, they gave little envelopes of powder said to contain a dollar's silver. That was a violation of the Constitution's specific reference to COIN but never mind. They were told if they made an attempt to heat the powder to get the silver out, that the substance mixed in with it would chemically combine with and destroy the silver. I don't know if this is true but it sounded like a true story. And I wouldn't put such a thing past those crooks to pass out envelopes of silver no one can use. Now they just tell you to get lost.
37 posted on 02/13/2003 3:26:53 PM PST by Jason_b
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To: Centurion2000
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Constitution SPECIFICALLY prohibit banks and states from creating their own currencies ??

When I was a kid, I can remember that sometimes local merchant groups or Chambers of Commerce would issue tokens (wooden nickels or perhaps some kind of metal coin) that could be used as "money" among participating merchants. Basicly, it's a marketing gimmick.

This sounds kinda like the same deal, only they're using silver.
If I had to guess, it probably means there's 10¢ worth of silver in their dollar token.

38 posted on 02/13/2003 3:27:17 PM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: agarrett
"the City of Evil) has taken advantage of this to coin their own money "

You are confused. Look it up in a law dictionary if you don't believe me. You are mixing up the ideas of printing paper with striking coins.

Some fellow in ithaca prints papers denominated in hours. If it takes an hour to give granny a hairdo, and the salon takes "hours" then granny can pay an "hour" bill. As long as there is a community of people who accept it in business the hours circulate. Granny has hours to spend because of her hobby earns her a few hours.

Coining money is specifically running a mint that produces precious metal coins. This is not what goes on in Ithaca.

Private mints have operated lawfully at various times of US history. Their product was accepted as "trade currency" but when a creditor took someone to court, he was entitled to be paid in US coin.

By the way, to delegate to Congress the power to coin money and regulate the value thereof, is not the same thing as saying they have the power to give us the Federal Reserve System and all that paper. They have the power to strike gold and silver coin. That is all. We (the US) have been chewed up and spit out by the money power. I don't have hope that we will ever be able to make things right again.

39 posted on 02/13/2003 3:42:22 PM PST by Jason_b
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To: Willie Green
This sounds kinda like the same deal, only they're using silver. If I had to guess, it probably means there's 10¢ worth of silver in their dollar token.

I'm holding a $10 NORFED Silver Liberty in my hand right now, and it's one troy ounce of .999 fine silver. No need to make uneducated guesses when you're on FreeRepublic.

40 posted on 02/13/2003 3:49:12 PM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: Chewbacca
Good info....talking about ratios, I can remember when gold sold around $35.00 and ounce back in the 70's (?) so if gold is now in the vicinity of $350/oz could we say the FRN's have been devalued to around 1/10th of their value from 25-30 years ago? When we look at the exhorbitant amount of inflation from then to now it kinda makes sense doesn't it?
41 posted on 02/13/2003 3:52:31 PM PST by american spirit
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To: mvpel
I'm holding a $10 NORFED Silver Liberty in my hand right now, and it's one troy ounce of .999 fine silver.

Well, Spot Silver (Bid) is at $4.52 as I post.

So you still just have a promotional token whose bullion value is less than half of face value.

42 posted on 02/13/2003 4:01:45 PM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: BlackJack
Norfed.org bump !
43 posted on 02/13/2003 4:04:28 PM PST by Ben Bolt
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To: Willie Green
Its a solid silver coin. Did you read the article?
44 posted on 02/13/2003 5:19:06 PM PST by BlackJack
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To: mvpel
Thanks for helping out. Some people post before they read.
45 posted on 02/13/2003 5:20:56 PM PST by BlackJack
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To: BlackJack
Some people post before they read.

Did you get to #42 yet?

46 posted on 02/13/2003 5:24:27 PM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Willie Green
Whats the spot price right now of paper?

47 posted on 02/13/2003 5:35:32 PM PST by BlackJack
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To: BlackJack
The spot price of paper is nil. What people need to understand (either before or after they loose their life-savings by speculating in the almighty dollar) is that paper, quite literally, grows on trees. Metals, on the other hand, require actual labor to produce.
48 posted on 02/13/2003 5:56:33 PM PST by silver_patriot2000
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To: Willie Green
What is the value of a $100 paper fed note?
What is the difference between that and a $50 fed note?

They are the same size piece of paper. They just changed the number printed on them.

Why can't the Treasury just make a couple $1,000,000,000,000 notes and pay the US deficit off?

49 posted on 02/13/2003 6:14:50 PM PST by Chewbacca
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To: Willie Green
The "bullion" value of a Sacagawea dollar coin is 1.2 cents, so is that a promotional token whose bullion value is less than 2% of its face value?

It's not the intrinsic value of the silver that is the main issue here, it's usefulness as currency.

If the intrinsic value of a given commodity is higher than its face value, then it is not useful as circulating currency. This is why the face value of the Silver Liberty is $10.00, instead of a daily-fluctuating value that happened to be $4.52 earlier today, and why you don't get $1 Silver Eagles in change at McDonald's.

That's why the US Mint switched from pure copper to copper-plated zinc for the penny. It was getting too close to the point where you could change a dollar for 100 pennies, then melt them down and sell the resulting slug of copper for $1.20.

And a consistent fixed value also reduces the transaction friction making it easier for silver to circulate in concert with Federal Reserve Notes. The vendor can simply enter $10.00 in their register, rather than having to go look up the current market price of a 5,000 ounce bar of silver in New York, which is what the spot price represents.

Alder Gold, which has the best prices online I've seen for metals, has $5.35 an ounce for a 100-ounce ingot.

And at least the vendor is getting $5.00 in intrinsic value in the transaction, which has the potential to increase in value over time, as opposed to $10 worth of monetized government debt as with a Federal Reserve Note, on which we owe interest to the Federal Reserve Bank that issued it.

50 posted on 02/13/2003 6:17:43 PM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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