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To: Southack
No, it isn't "beside" the point, it is CENTRAL to the point.

It is only central to the point because you insist it must be otherwise you don't have any point.

If ONLY intelligent entities can be shown to be responsible for a process (e.g. a computer software program), then it isn't very credible to suggest that non-intelligent entities are responsible for a that or an analagous but unknown process.

The operative word here is 'if' and it cannot be shown that 'only' intelligent entities can be shown to be responsible for a process because the whole universe is nothing but process. You just want to take one process, that can be MAPPED with a mathematical system we call Base 4, and ASSUME because it can be mapped in this manner that it MUST be the result of some 'intelligent entity.' This is why I said you reified Base 4 because Base 4 is a CONCEPT not at THING, and exists only as a CONCEPT in your mind, which your are mistaking as a THING, - the error of which is called Mistaking the Map for the Territory.

That's just jibberish.

Flattery can get you anywhere!

Base 4 math is an order of magnitude of complexity GREATER than Base 2 (i.e. Binary) math. Yet show me where Binary programs form without Intelligent Intervention and THEN we'll be able to discuss whether the vastly more complex Base-4 instructions in DNA could even potentially be formed without Intelligent Intervention.

But the analogy that DNA is a 'program' Begs the Question that it is one. If it were as intelligently designed as you assert it wouldn't result in two headed snakes, or babies without brains. I don't have to provide you with a Base 2 that is created by natural processes because there is a vastly more complex process, Base 4, that has been created by natural processes. Your argument here would be like me saying, "Prove that the Apostles could write before you prove they wrote the New Testament."

But the burden of proof is on you. Where is that mystical non-intelligence-formed Base-2 software program?!

Night and Day, your are the one. It's only you under the moon and under the sun! Good and evil, Right and wrong. Male and Female. Genius and fool. Yin and Yang! Shall I go on? See, as a former Daoist you got the wrong guy here. The whole can be viewed as a non-intelligence formed Base-2 software program. The proofs are endless and you cannot prove otherwise.

After all, I can show PLENTY of examples of such software that has been made WITH intelligent intervention (so I've done my burden of proof - that leaves you out in the cold again)...

But reality isn't 'software' that is just a faulty analogy, leaving you in the dark again. You haven't proven anything other than you make assumptions that you cannot back up, and expect those to stand as aguments.

The Burden of Proof is upon you to prove that anything, anything at all, in nature anywhere is, in fact, intelligently designed. The Universe seems like a pretty haphazard, irrational design to me. We could get exterminated by an asteroid any minute. The DNA program is so random and flawed it produces the most horrendous errors on a regular basis. The sun that I burned my skin with earlier is really killing me with the invisible and undetectable, except by the most sophisticated scientific means, rays embodied within its beautiful warmth.

There is a flesh eating bacteria in a local lake that kills you in a day if it gets in your blood stream, but only does so in one in a million.

The only thing that has ever raised human beings from the muck and mire of the swamp is logic and reason, in the full application of science, and a majority of the planet want to reject that in favor of various superstitions.

Intelligent Design my A*&^^&%#$!

96 posted on 02/15/2003 6:38:25 PM PST by LogicWings
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To: LogicWings
"it cannot be shown that 'only' intelligent entities can be shown to be responsible for a process because the whole universe is nothing but process. You just want to take one process, that can be MAPPED with a mathematical system we call Base 4, and ASSUME because it can be mapped in this manner that it MUST be the result of some 'intelligent entity.' This is why I said you reified Base 4 because Base 4 is a CONCEPT not at THING, and exists only as a CONCEPT in your mind, which your are mistaking as a THING, - the error of which is called Mistaking the Map for the Territory."

Nonsense. One can easily show that every known instance of computer programming in Base 2 (i.e. Binary) has been created by an Intelligent Intervention (e.g. Man), and NOT by natural, unintelligent processes.

And as for your "reifying" sub-point, the literal Base 2 and Base 4 instruction sets are more than abstract. They are physically processed in the real world, after all.

That's how Life and Software work, you know...

136 posted on 02/15/2003 9:48:03 PM PST by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: LogicWings
"But the analogy that DNA is a 'program' Begs the Question that it is one."

Rubbish. DNA is comprised of A, C, G, and T base pairs. These coding instructions are fundamental to how each unique gene (aka: subroutine) has its own functionality. Genes can be predictably altered, deleted, and copied (and we do this in the scientific lab every day) just as software programming subroutines can be altered, deleted, and copied.

"If it were as intelligently designed as you assert it wouldn't result in two headed snakes, or babies without brains."

Nonsense. Try to SHOW the specific wording that I used that could be interpreted to draw that conclusion (HINT: you can't, because I said no such thing).

Software has bugs. Environmental variables can also affect the output of software. Thus, this evidence is clearly contradictory to your claim above.

"I don't have to provide you with a Base 2 that is created by natural processes because there is a vastly more complex process, Base 4, that has been created by natural processes."

Oh please. Base 4 processes have never been proven to have come from ANYTHING except Intelligent Intervention. The only way that you could even claim otherwise is to be so intellectually dishonest as to assert that we "know" that evolution is true so therefor DNA must have been self-programmed naturally (i.e. a tautology, something that no honest intellectual would like to be caught using).

So it isn't that you "don't have to" provide such evidence, it is that you can not provide such evidence. It simply doesn't exist.

137 posted on 02/15/2003 9:59:14 PM PST by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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