Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


1 posted on 03/10/2003 11:36:53 AM PST by LivFREEordie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies ]


To: LivFREEordie
Should Christians always oppose war?

Iow, should Christians "turn the other cheek" to evil? The answer, most emphatically, is NO.

2 posted on 03/10/2003 11:39:43 AM PST by Mr. Mojo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
I WISH I COULD GO TO THIS GUY'S CHURCH!

I have to tell you people, this Sunday was tough one here at a Catholic Church in LA. It wasn't a homily, it was perverse Leftist rally to join the anti war movement. It revolted me, and I'm a member of the contemporary choir! If I hadn't had equipment there, I would have gotten up and walked out in the middle. I had a hard time sleeping last night and I feel betrayed by the Church. I am considering trying to find another church.

If the wealthy Vatican wants to subsidize any costs America has from a random WMD going off here, then maybe their stance has credibility.
3 posted on 03/10/2003 11:51:28 AM PST by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Reagan must have done alot of good to be hated by the left this bad)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie; Mr. Mojo
Hey, this is pretty good for an ELCA guy! Voosen is saying that Christians should not always oppose war. He's right. And this is the historic biblical/Christian/Lutheran position, that it is not wrong "to engage in just wars" (Augsburg Confession, Article XVI).

The officialdom of the extremely liberal ELCA, however, predictably have come out with the leftist line on the current situation. But the ELCA hardly represents confessional Lutheranism in any respect. There are many other Lutherans, and the next three largest church bodies are much more conservative: the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), and the Evangelical Lutheran Synod (ELS).

(I am a pastor in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.)

4 posted on 03/10/2003 11:57:29 AM PST by Charles Henrickson (LCMS pastor)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
Some pacifist Christians always oppose to war, such as many Mennonites, Jehovah’s Witnesses, some Quakers, etc. Therefore, they refuse military training, and they are either incarcerated or sent to do community work during periods when the military draft is in place.

On the other hand, when many American Indians asked the European Christians to go back to Europe, most Christians did not listen and fought the Indians. Therefore, you can make an argument that modern pacifist American Christians are benefitting from an unjust war against the Indians.

Benjamin Franklyn gives several anecdotes about the pacifist Quakers and the belligerent Indians on his books, and it’s just funny to see how much the pacifist Christians are willing to compromise when there is nobody else around to defend them.

9 posted on 03/10/2003 12:11:03 PM PST by george wythe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
Charles Stanley did a great sermon on this topic.

http://www.intouch.org/War/index_38027182.html

Excerpt: "Throughout Scripture there is evidence that God favors war for divine reasons and sometimes uses it to accomplish His will."
11 posted on 03/10/2003 12:16:38 PM PST by ncdrumr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie; Mr. Mojo; PeoplesRep_of_LA; Boxsford; maestro; george wythe; xzins; Alamo-Girl; ...
While the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) does not have an official position on the War on Terrorism and/or Iraq, here are two recent pieces written by our church body's president that I commend for your consideration:

First, from February 27 . . .

LCMS President Kieschnick's letter to President Bush:

Dear President Bush:

Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus, the Prince of Peace.

These are trying times for the American people and for many people around the world. In confronting Saddam Hussein, and others of his ilk, we face a new kind of danger—a danger portending the disruption of the peaceful pursuit of life, a danger placing not only our own citizens but also those of other nations under an anxious pall of terror.

As I mentioned to you in the Roosevelt Room of the White House on September 19, 2001, you are not in the position of leader of the free world by happenstance. God’s hand moves behind the thrones of this world, lifting up those whom He will, while removing those whose time has come to an end. In God’s gracious providence, He has provided for our common good in the United States both sound government and also leaders of that government to whom He has given the sword—a sword to preserve the peace as well as to punish evildoers (Romans 13:1-5). You, Mr. President, carry that sword as God’s appointed servant in the secular kingdom called the United States of America.

To lecture or advise you on the question of whether to go to war would be presumptuous on my part. You are privy to much special intelligence and highly classified information, which, along with the wise counsel of your able advisors, will help you to determine the most prudent course of action. It is a heavy burden to have to make such a decision—a decision made in the light of the time-honored principle espoused by the Church since the days of St. Augustine: that nations are to declare war only in cases of a just cause and for the purpose of self-defense. In the case of possible military conflict with Iraq, it is for you and your advisors to decide the justness of the cause and the question of self-defense.

Members of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod have long played an active role in the government of our country, in helping to address social needs, and in serving in the military. In this time of uncertainty, we pray the Lord will grant you wisdom in your decision-making and courage in your leadership. I know you are a man of faith and prayer, devoted to our Savior Jesus Christ. I know you take His Word and message very seriously. Likewise, I am convinced that you take your high office most earnestly.

Mr. President, please be assured that you have my full support personally and as President of one of the 10-largest Christian churches in America, together with the prayers of all 2.5 million members of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod. We stand with you as you endeavor to preserve world peace, to protect the United States of America, to end human suffering, and to spare human life.

God’s call to government leaders is to carry out their responsibilities justly for the people they serve, for it is by his justice that a leader gives his country stability. To that end, may the Lord give to you, as He gave to Solomon, a wise and discerning heart for administering justice (1 Kings 3:11). And may He "let that justice roll on like a river . . . like a never-failing stream!" (Amos 5:24).

Terry and I hold you and Laura in our prayers. God’s grace, mercy and peace be with you both!

Sincerely in Christ,
Gerald B. Kieschnick, President
The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod

And secondly, from March 4 . . .

LCMS President Kieschnick's statement on "Peace":

Peace

These are trying times for all Americans and for people around the world. In confronting Saddam Hussein, and others like him, we face a new kind of danger--a danger threatening the disruption of the pursuit of a life of peace, a danger placing not only our own citizens but also those of other nations under the anxious pall of terror.

War, terrorism and fighting have characterized this world’s history and are clear testimony to the imperfection of the human race. In fact, human nature has a desperately evil side, which draws people into quarrels that can eventually develop into war. Many wonder how to reconcile the teachings of Jesus, the Prince of Peace, with the horrors of war. In the early centuries of the Church, this very question arose and was addressed by one of the great church Fathers, St. Augustine. He understood that flawed human hearts sometimes pursue the path of evil, seeking to oppress and even destroy one’s fellowman. Can there be times when people of good will may resist such evil? What is the role of the state in protecting its citizens from aggression, whether within its own borders or from another country?

St. Augustine understood that the state is a God-ordained institution and that its primary leader is "God’s servant...who does not bear the sword for nothing...but is an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the evildoer."

He wrote that nations, in defense of their own people and in order to preserve the peace, may declare war in the case of a just cause and for the purpose of self-defense.

Martin Luther, the great 16th century Christian reformer, spoke of the reality of this tension in terms of two kingdoms, both under the rule of God but each ruling differently. The kingdom of the left hand is the secular kingdom ruled by kings, presidents and governors. Its guiding principles are human reason and the sword. The kingdom of the right hand is the Church, whose power lies in the forgiveness and mercy won by Christ’s death and resurrection.

All people live in the kingdom of the left, whether they are or are not believers in Christ. It is here that our elected officials rule by reason and, when necessary, by the sword.

President Bush faces a great challenge when confronting a new kind of evil that no longer is neatly contained or defined by political borders. He is charged with protecting American citizens and American interests from those who would destroy the peace and terrorize.

Our President has been entrusted with the sword. He may have to use it. We pray for God’s wisdom to guide him in the execution of his duty, that peace may prevail for us and for all people.

The Bible tells of a peace in Christ that gives confidence and hope for the future. It is a peace borne of His mercy and forgiveness. We pray this peace for all people everywhere and that our world may be spared the crucible of war.

Gerald B. Kieschnick, President
The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod

While I have serious disagreements with President Kieschnick on many controversial issues now confronting our synod, on this matter, however, I have no major criticisms and I agree with the thrust of what he has written.

12 posted on 03/10/2003 12:18:23 PM PST by Charles Henrickson (LCMS pastor)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
read later
13 posted on 03/10/2003 12:21:06 PM PST by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
Should Christians always oppose war?

I worried long and hard about this issue.

Then I realized that Christ himself praised the faith of the centurion.
And didn't criticize the centurion's career choice.
19 posted on 03/10/2003 12:38:59 PM PST by VOA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
A real good topic......for the Religion Forum.
21 posted on 03/10/2003 12:54:25 PM PST by Consort
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
A clarification......
When Jesus said ""But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."....most people conviently leave out the next line...."It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'"

And IMHO, when Jesus says "that is enough", he is not referring to the quantity of swords, but He is saying...Enough of this talk about swords.
25 posted on 03/10/2003 1:21:14 PM PST by newcats
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
Bump!

32 posted on 03/10/2003 1:29:10 PM PST by k2blader (Please do not feed the Tag Lion. ®oar.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
PSALM 149:6-9 --
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, And a two-edged sword in their hand, To execute vengeance on the nations and punishment on the peoples, To bind their kings with chains and their nobles with fetters of iron, to execute on them the judgment written; This is an honor for all His godly ones. Praise the LORD!
37 posted on 03/10/2003 1:58:41 PM PST by My2Cents ("...The bombing begins in 5 minutes.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight...
...that there be no complaining in our streets. Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD.
38 posted on 03/10/2003 2:31:17 PM PST by Theophilus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: RnMomof7; LivFREEordie; Charles Henrickson; Alamo-Girl; alancarp; xzins; drstevej
RnMomof7 ;LivFREEordie ;Charles Henrickson ;Alamo-Girl ; alancarp ;xzins; drstevej

It is like the tension between the 4th and 5th commandments. The 4th tells us to honor authorities and the 5th not to kill.

1 posted on 03/10/2003 12:36 PM MST by LivFREEordie

The author misunderstands the original text

The Greek is very clear and the Hebrew is very clear :

It does not say KILL, it says MURDER.

We are prohibited from committing MURDER.

There is no tension between the 4th and the 5th commandment; G-d wrote both.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the
Thessalonians, for they received the message with great
eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if
what Paul said was true.

chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

39 posted on 03/10/2003 2:54:12 PM PST by Uri’el-2012
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
bump
41 posted on 03/10/2003 2:59:09 PM PST by Wasichu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
Ecclesiastes: "There is a time for everything...A time to kill and a time to heal...a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."
47 posted on 03/10/2003 5:36:02 PM PST by F16Fighter (There is NO difference between the French and Democrats.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
Question: "Should Christians always oppose war?"

Answer: It depends upon what period of Western Civilization one looks at. Today a respectable argument could be made that Western Christians are physiologically incapable of fighting. In 1200 A.D. it was a different story.

50 posted on 03/10/2003 7:09:54 PM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (Further, the statement assumed)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
No.

It's difficult to understand how anyone can: 1) serve a God who will overthrow the wicked on the earth in the final battle, Armageddon, and 2) believe, as a servant of that God, that they should oppose war.

God gave us the right to self-defense. He gives that right to nations as well. The Old Testament is packed with the wars of Israel defending herself.

Jesus came to earth the first time as the Lamb of God. He is also the Lion of Judah and He is coming again to conquer and subdue the nations. In the meantime, He said, "Occupy till I come." It's impossible to occupy if you are all dead because you roll over in front of the tanks and bombs of evil men. The important thing is to know that your nation's leaders are going into battle for just and right causes.
52 posted on 03/10/2003 8:16:24 PM PST by GretchenEE (Coddling terrorists isn't peace, it's pretense.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: LivFREEordie
Bump for later
65 posted on 03/13/2003 7:35:23 AM PST by mollynme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson