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To: B4Ranch
I'm sorry, but the "choice" between giving the government more power to fight terrorism (or crime) and giving up my personal freedom is nothing more than a false alternative that the left has been peddling for decades. In fact, we can walk and chew gum at the same time, i.e. we can fight crime (and terrorism) without compromising the personal freedom that each of us enjoys as Americans.

The Constitution doesn't prohibit reasonable searches and seizures, and I have seen nothing in the Patriot Act or its implementation that leads me to conclude that any of its procedures are unreasonable.

54 posted on 03/14/2003 11:21:09 PM PST by kesg
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To: kesg
I have no problem with "reasonable" search and seizure but not informing American citizens is unreasonable to me. Capturing a foreign terrorist and keeping the fact quiet for a couple of years doesn't phase me in the least, but again American citizens should have better rights.
57 posted on 03/14/2003 11:29:36 PM PST by B4Ranch (Politicians, like diapers should be changed often. Stop re-electing these 'good' people!)
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To: kesg
No?

So what powers do the government have over it's citizens that it did not prior to the passage of the "Patriot Act?"

Among the worst seven provisions of the bill are the following.

1. The FBI can secretly enter someone's home or office, search the premises, and leave without notifying the owner. In theory, this would be supervised by a court. However, the notification of the secret search "may be delayed" indefinitely (Section 213). This is, of course, a complete violation of the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits "fishing expeditions" and guarantees the right of the people to be "secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures." All the federal government must do to suspend your Fourth Amendment rights is accuse you of terrorism.

2. Any U.S. attorney or state attorney general can order the installation of the FBI's Carnivore surveillance system. As reported before, this system records all e-mail correspondence and the addresses of Web pages visited by a specific target. Previously, there were legal restrictions on Carnivore and other Internet surveillance techniques (Section 216). Even more troubling, Fox News has reported that the FBI plans to go beyond the authorization of the new bill and change the very architecture of the Internet. The FBI wants to route all net traffic through central servers for monitoring. While this will require the voluntary compliance of the major ISPs, most experts agree that they will quickly cave into these demands for fear of appearing uncooperative or unpatriotic.

3. An accused terrorist who is a foreign citizen(seems #2 would expand this provision to include American citizens.) can be held for an unspecified series of "periods of up to six months" with the attorney general's approval. He doesn't have to be charged and he may be denied access to an attorney (Section 412). In effect, this provision suspends any due process provisions of the Constitution, especially the Fifth Amendment which states that "no person … [shall] be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law." While the provision of this bill only applies to foreigners, it sets a dangerous precedent and could easily be used in the future against U.S. citizens accused of domestic terrorism.

4. Foreigners who enter the U.S. on a visa will be subjected to biometric technology, such as fingerprint readers or iris scanners. This will become part of an "integrated entry and exit data system" (Section 414. My fear is that eventually all Americans will be forced to submit to this technology. This bill will put the infrastructure in place. In will then be a simple step to require all citizens to participate in this system. Failure to do so may result in the inability to travel or even to buy and sell merchandise or property.

5. Without a court order, the FBI can require telephone companies and Internet service providers to turn over customer records. All they have to do is claim that the "records sought are relevant to an authorized investigation to protect against international terrorism." Worse, the company contacted may not "disclose to any person" that the FBI is doing an investigation (Section 505). The bill of rights was written to protect citizens from exactly this kind of abuse. This provision of the new law completely throws out the presumption of innocence doctrine that is central to our system of justice. Now anyone can be treated as a criminal if they are merely accused of a crime.

6. Without a court order, credit reporting agencies must disclose to the FBI any information that agents request in connection with a terrorist investigation. The agencies may not disclose to the subject that the FBI is snooping in their file (Section 505). Again, there is no presumption of innocence and the suspect is denied his due process rights. This gives government agents the authority to spy on anyone's financial activities. All they have to do is make the accusation of terrorism and the door swings wide open.

7. The current definition of terrorism is expanded to include biochemical attacks and computer hacking. Some current computer crimes — such as hacking a U.S. government system or breaking into and damaging any Internet-connected computer — are also covered (Section 808). While these are no doubt crimes and should be prosecuted, by classifying them as "terrorist activities," suspects are subject to having their rights radically curtailed, as I have outlined above. If convicted, they are subjected to extremely stiff penalties. Prison terms range between five and 20 years (Section 814).

This country was great at one time because it's people stood up for principal. Our principals were written into the Bill of Rights and the U.S. Constitution. Principles do count. If we destroy the principles by which we live through cowardice, expediency, fear, or any other reason, we will destroy the basis of our existence. But long before that happens, what we know as freedom...will no longer exist.

64 posted on 03/15/2003 6:37:44 AM PST by KDD
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