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Oriana Fallaci: Rage and doubt of a threatened civilisation
The Sunday Times ^ | March 16, 2003 | Oriana Fallaci

Posted on 03/15/2003 3:33:34 PM PST by MadIvan

Oriana Fallaci, the controversial writer who has caused a furore with her views on Islam, says we have realised too late that our values are in danger

To avoid the dilemma of whether this war should take place or not, to overcome the reservations, the reluctance and the doubts that still lacerate me, I often say to myself: “How good if the Iraqis would get free of Saddam Hussein by themselves. How good if they would execute him and hang up his body by the feet as in 1945 we Italians did with Mussolini.”

But it does not help. Or it helps in one way only. The Italians, in fact, could get free of Mussolini because in 1945 the allies had conquered almost four-fifths of Italy. In other words, because the second world war had taken place. A war without which we would have kept Mussolini (and Hitler) for ever. A war during which the allies had pitilessly bombed us and we had died like mosquitoes. The allies, too. At Salerno, Anzio, Cassino. Along the road from Rome to Florence, then on the terrible Gothic Line.

In less than two years, 45,806 dead among the Americans and 17,500 among the British, the Canadians, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the South Africans, the Indians, the Brazilians. And also the French, who had chosen de Gaulle, also the Italians, who had chosen the 5th or the 8th Armies. (Can anybody guess how many cemeteries of allied soldiers there are in Italy? More than 130. And the largest, the most crowded, are the American ones. At Nettuno, 10,950 graves. At Falciani, near Florence, 5,811. Each time I pass in front of it and see that lake of crosses, I shiver with grief and gratitude.)

There was also a National Liberation Front in Italy. A resistance that the allies supplied with weapons and ammunition. As in spite of my age (14), I was involved in the matter. I remember well the American plane that, braving anti-aircraft fire, parachuted those supplies to Tuscany. To be exact, onto Mount Giovi, where one night they air- dropped also a commando unit with the task of activating a short-wave network named Radio Cora.

Ten smiling Americans who spoke perfect Italian and who three months later were captured by the SS, tortured and executed with a Florentine partisan girl: Anna Maria Enriquez-Agnoletti. Thus the dilemma remains, tormenting, obsessive.

It remains for the reasons I will try to state. And the first reason is that, contrary to the pacifists who never yell against Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Laden and only yell against George W Bush and Tony Blair (but in their Rome march they also yelled against me and raised posters wishing I’d blow up with the next shuttle), I know war very well. I know what it means to live in terror, to run under airstrikes, to see people killed and houses destroyed, to starve and dream for a piece of bread, to miss even a glass of drinking water. And, which is worse, to feel responsible for the death of another human being (even if that human being is an enemy — for instance a fascist or a German soldier).

I know it because I belong to the second world war generation and because as a member of the resistance, I was myself a soldier. I also know it because for a good deal of my life I have been a war correspondent.

Beginning with Vietnam, I have experienced horrors that those who see war only through television or the movies where blood is tomato juice don’t even imagine. As a consequence I hate it as the pacifists in bad or good faith never will. I loathe it. I hate it so much that every book I have written overflows with that loathing, and I cannot bear the sight of guns.

At the same time, however, I don’t accept the principle — or should I say the slogan — that “All wars are unjust, illegitimate”. The war against Hitler and Mussolini and Hirohito was just, was legitimate. The Risorgimento wars that my ancestors fought against the invaders of Italy were just, were legitimate. And so was the war of independence that Americans fought against Britain.

So are the wars (or revolutions) that take place to regain dignity, freedom. I do not believe in vile acquittals, phoney appeasements, easy forgiveness. Even less in the exploitation or the blackmail of the word “peace”. When in the name of peace we surrender to violence, tyranny, when in the name of peace we resign to fear, we give up dignity and freedom, it is no longer peace. It’s suicide.

The second reason is that this war should not happen now. If just as I wish, legitimate as I hope, it should have happened one year ago. That is, when the ruins of the towers were still smoking and the whole civilised world felt American. Had it happened then, the pacifists who never yell against Saddam Hussein or Bin Laden would not today fill the squares to anathematise the United States. Hollywood stars would not play the role of messiahs, and ambiguous Turkey — which is again imposing the chador on women — would not deny passage to the marines who must reach the northern front.

Despite the Europeans who added their voice to the voice of the Palestinians howling “Americans-got-it. Good” one year ago, nobody questioned that another Pearl Harbor had been inflicted on the US and that the US had all the right to respond.

As a matter of fact, it should have happened before. I mean when Bill Clinton was president and small Pearl Harbors were bursting abroad. In Somalia, Kenya, Yemen and so on. As I shall never tire of repeating, we did not need September 11 to see that the cancer was there.

September 11 was the excruciating confirmation of a reality that had been burning for decades, the indisputable diagnosis of a doctor who waves an x-ray and brutally snaps: “My dear sir, my dear madam, you really have cancer.”

Had Mr Clinton spent less time with voluptuous girls, had he made smarter use of the Oval Office, maybe September 11 would not have occurred. And, needless to say, even less would it have occurred if George Bush Sr had removed Saddam Hussein with the Gulf war.

For Christ’s sake, in 1991 the Iraqi army deflated like a pricked balloon. It disintegrated so quickly, so easily, that even I captured four of its soldiers. I was behind a dune in the Saudi desert, all alone. Four skeletal creatures in ragged uniforms came towards me with arms raised and whispered: “Bush, Bush.” Meaning: “I am so thirsty, so hungry. Please take me prisoner.” So I took them prisoner. I delivered them to the marine in charge and instead of congratulating me he grumbled: “Dammit! We’ve already got 50,000. You’ve got me more?” Yet the Americans did not get to Baghdad: George Bush Sr did not remove Saddam. (“The UN mandate was to liberate Kuwait and that’s all.”) And in order to thank them, Saddam Hussein tried to assassinate him. In fact, at times I wonder if this war isn’t also a long-awaited retaliation, a filial revenge, a promise made by the son to the father. Like in a Shakespearian tragedy. Better, a Greek one.

The third reason is the wrong way in which the hypothetical promise has materialised. Let’s admit it: from September 11 until last summer, all the stress was put on Bin Laden, on Al-Qaeda, on Afghanistan. Saddam and Iraq were practically ignored.

Only when it became clear that Bin Laden was in good health, that the solemn commitment to take him dead or alive had failed, were we reminded that Saddam existed too. That he was not a gentle soul, that he cut the tongues and ears of his adversaries, that he killed children in front of their parents, that he decapitated prostitutes then displayed their heads in the streets, that he kept his prisoners in cells as small as coffins, that he made his biological or chemical experiments on them too. That he had connections with Al-Qaeda and supported terrorism, that he rewarded the families of Palestinian kamikazes at the rate of $25,000 each. That he had never disarmed, never given up his arsenal of deadly weapons.

Thus the UN should send back the inspectors and let’s be serious: if 70 years ago the ineffective League of Nations had sent its inspectors to Germany, do you think that Hitler would have shown them Peenemünde where von Braun was manufacturing V2s to pulverise London? Do you think that Hitler would have disclosed the camps of Auschwitz, Mauthausen, Buchenwald, Dachau? Yet the inspection comedy resumed. With such intensity that the role of prima donna passed from Bin Laden to Saddam, and the arrest of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the engineer of September 11, was received almost with indifference.

A comedy marked by the double games, rather the complicity, of the inspectors and by the conflicting strategies of Bush, who on the one hand asked the security council for permission to use force and on the other sent his troops to the front. In less than two months, 250,000 troops. With the British and Australians, 310,000.

And all this without realising that his enemies (but I should say the enemies of the West) are not only in Baghdad.

They are also in Europe, Mr Bush. They are in Paris where the mellifluous Jacques Chirac does not give a damn for peace but plans to satisfy his vanity with the Nobel peace prize. Where nobody wishes to remove Saddam Hussein because Saddam Hussein means the oil that the French companies pump from Iraqi wells. And where (forgetting a little flaw named Pétain) France chases its Napoleonic desire to dominate the European Union, to establish its hegemony over it.

They are in Berlin, where the party of the mediocre Gerhard Schröder won the elections by comparing Bush to Hitler. And where American flags are soiled with the swastika of Nazi Germany. And where, playing the part of the masters again, Germans are arm in arm with the French.

They are in Rome where the communists left by the door and re-entered through the window like the birds of the Hitchcock movie; where, pestering the world with his ecumenism, his pietism, his Third Worldism, Pope Wojtyla receives Tariq Aziz as a dove or a martyr who is about to be eaten by lions. Then he sends him to Assisi where the friars escort him to the tomb of St Francis, poor St Francis. In the other European countries it is more or less the same.

In Europe the enemies of the United States are everywhere, Mr Bush. There is hate, similar to the one that the Soviet Union displayed until the fall of the Berlin Wall. What you quietly call “differences of opinion” are in reality pure hate. Because in Europe, pacifism is synonymous with anti-Americanism, sir, and accompanied by the most sinister revival of anti-semitism, the anti-Americanism triumphs as much as in the Islamic world.

Do you know why? Europe is no longer Europe. It is a province of Islam, as Spain and Portugal were at the time of the Moors. It hosts almost 16m Muslim immigrants: that is triple those who stay in America. (And America is three times larger than Europe.) It teems with mullahs, imams, mosques, burqas, chadors and don’t you dare protest.

It lodges thousands of Islamic terrorists whom governments don’t know how to identify and control. As a consequence people are afraid, and in waving the flag of pacifism — synonymous with anti-Americanism — they feel protected.

Besides, Europe does not care for the 221,484 Americans who died for her in the second world war, sir. Rather than gratitude, their cemeteries in Normandy, the Ardennes, in Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, Denmark and in Italy give rise to resentment.

In other words, in Europe nobody will back this war. Not even nations that are really allied with the US, such as Spain; not even the nations where prime ministers who (like Silvio Berlusconi) call you “My friend George”.

In Europe you have only one friend, one ally: Tony Blair. But Mr Blair, too, leads a country that is invaded by the Moors and hides that resentment. Even his party opposes him and, by the way, I owe you an apology, Mr Blair.

I owe it to you because in my book The Rage and the Pride, I have been unfair to you.

Destructed by your excess of courtesy towards the Islamic culture, I wrote that you are a cicada among cicadas, that your courage would not last too long, that as soon as it no longer served your political career you would set it aside.

On the contrary, with impeccable coherence you are sacrificing that political career to your convictions. Indeed, I apologise, sir. I also withdraw the ugly phrase which aggravated my injustice:

“If our culture has the same value as the one that imposes the burqa, why do you spend your summers in my Tuscany and not in Saudi Arabia?” Now I say: “Come when you want, sir. My Tuscany is your Tuscany. My home is your home.”

The final reason for my dilemma is the definition that Bush and Blair and their advisers give of this war: “A liberation war. A humanitarian war to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq.” Oh, no. Humanitarianism has nothing to do with wars. All wars, even just ones, even the legitimate ones, are death and destruction and atrocities and tears.

And this is not a liberation war, a war like the second world war. (By the way: neither is it an “oil war”, as the pacifists who never yell against Saddam or Bin Laden maintain in their rallies. Americans do not need Iraqi oil.) It is a political war. A war made in cold blood to respond to the holy war that the enemies of the West declared upon the West on September 11.

It is also a prophylactic war. A vaccine, a surgery that hits Saddam because, among the various focuses of cancer, Saddam is the most obvious and dangerous one.

He is also the obstacle (Bush and Blair and their advisers believe) that once removed will permit them to redesign the map of the Middle East as the British and the French did after the crash of the Ottoman empire.

To redesign it and to spread a Pax Romana, pardon, a Pax Americana, where freedom and democracy reign; where nobody bothers us any longer with attacks and massacres. Where everybody can prosper and live happily as in the fairy tales — nonsense. Freedom is not a gift, like a piece of chocolate, and democracy cannot be imposed with armies.

As my father said when he asked the anti-fascists to join the resistance and as I say when I talk to those who honestly believe in a Pax Americana, people must conquer freedom by themselves. Democracy comes from civilisation. And in both cases one must know what they consist in.

In Europe the second world war was a liberation war, not because it gave people those two pieces of chocolate — two novelties called liberty or freedom — but because it re-established them. And it did re-establish them because Europeans had lost them because of Hitler and Mussolini. Because they knew them and wanted them back.

The Japanese did not: true. In Japan, those two pieces of chocolate were somehow a gift, a refund for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But Japan had already started its march towards progress and did not belong to the world that in my book I call “the mountain”. A mountain that for 1,400 years has not moved or changed, has not emerged from the abyss of its blindness. In other words, Islam.

The modern concepts of freedom and democracy are totally unrelated to the ideological texture of Islam, and totally opposed to the despotism and tyranny of theocratic states. In that ideological texture, it is God who commands, it is God who decides the destiny of man, and men are not the children of God: they are his subjects, his slaves. Inshallah — as God wants — inshallah.

Thus in the Koran there is no room for individual judgment, individual choice and freedom. There is no room for a regime that, at least in law, is based on equality and universal suffrage. In fact Muslims do not understand these modern concepts. They refuse them and hope to erase them from our lives by invading and conquering us.

Upheld by their stubborn optimism, the same optimism for which at Fort Alamo they fought so well and all died slaughtered by Santa Anna, Americans think that in Baghdad they will be welcomed as they were in Rome, Florence and Paris. “They’ll cheer us, throw us flowers,” a Washington egghead joyfully said to me.

Maybe. In Baghdad anything can happen. But after that? More than two-thirds of the Iraqis are Shi’ites who have always dreamt of establishing an Islamic republic of Iraq, and the Soviets too were once cheered in Kabul. They too imposed their pax. They even succeeded in convincing women to take off their burqas, remember? After a while, though, they had to leave. And the Taliban came.

Question: what if instead of learning freedom Iraq becomes a second Talibani Afghanistan? What if instead of becoming democratised by the Pax Americana the whole Middle East blows up and the cancer multiplies from country to country in a chain reaction? As a proud defender of the West’s civilisation, and decided to defend it to the last breath, without reservations I should join Mr Bush and Mr Blair barricaded in a new Fort Alamo.

Without reluctance I should fight and die with them. And this is the only thing about which I have no doubts at all.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; US: District of Columbia; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: blair; bush; civilisation; clashofcivilizatio; fallaci; iraq; islam; pride; rage; uk; us
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The Sunday Times is reprinting this article which originally appeared in the Wall Street Journal. Well worth a re-post, I thought.

Regards, Ivan


1 posted on 03/15/2003 3:33:34 PM PST by MadIvan
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To: TEXOKIE; Pan_Yans Wife; mumbo; Siouxz; Otta B Sleepin; Mr. Mulliner; Semper911; Bubbette; ...
Bump!
2 posted on 03/15/2003 3:33:55 PM PST by MadIvan (Learn the power of the Dark Side, www.thedarkside.net)
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To: MadIvan
Read this one before... VERY GOOD.

You find the greatest stuff. Thanks!
3 posted on 03/15/2003 3:36:00 PM PST by Pan_Yans Wife (Lurking since 2000.)
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To: MadIvan
"Had Mr Clinton spent less time with voluptuous girls"


Monica?
4 posted on 03/15/2003 3:38:45 PM PST by Bulldogs22
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To: MadIvan
Read it in the WSJ Thursday or so. Surprized that it did not turn up on FR sooner.

That's a bump.
5 posted on 03/15/2003 3:40:25 PM PST by Poincare ((not a good time for a Frenchish screen name))
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To: MadIvan
As a proud defender of the West?s civilisation, and decided to defend it to the last breath, without reservations I should join Mr Bush and Mr Blair barricaded in a new Fort Alamo. Without reluctance I should fight and die with them. And this is the only thing about which I have no doubts at all.
Indeed. We should all take our places on the barricades.

I respectfully disagree with Fallaci about the "texture of Islam" etc. People generally prefer freedom to oppression, even our Muslim brothers and sisters.
6 posted on 03/15/2003 3:40:25 PM PST by Asclepius (hoping for the best)
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To: MadIvan
Bump - great read.
7 posted on 03/15/2003 3:52:44 PM PST by TheOtherOne
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To: MadIvan
This is as confusing to read in The Sunday Times as it was in the Wall Street Journal. She argues so much with herself that it's hard to see what she really wants to happen. But the last two paragraphs maks it clear: the battle is to defend Western civilization against Islamic fundamentalism and oppression. This battle, like the Alamo, is worth dying for.
8 posted on 03/15/2003 3:53:28 PM PST by AZLiberty
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To: AZLiberty
THIS is what I feel is the essence of Fallaci: As my father said when he asked the anti-fascists to join the resistance and as I say when I talk to those who honestly believe in a Pax Americana, people must conquer freedom by themselves. Democracy comes from civilisation. And in both cases one must know what they consist in. How I wish this nation could read and take to heart the lessons this woman has learned through blood and fear. Islam does not direct its adherents toward democracy, it directs its enslaved minds toward theocracy. If the Bush administration is making one fundamental error, it is in expecting minds so long oppressed by Islamism to embrace democratic principles.

The West is in a war for its survival. Perhaps Usama acted too soon (impelled, one could conjecture now, by the insistence of his associate of convenience, Saddam), but the fact of our war with radical Islamism is upon us in full. Now is the time to knock over the pins of this cult of allah underpinned by forced adherence to the worship of a false god of peace. Now is the time to offer liberation and see what will come of it. At least, when liberating, we can destroy the current stocks of weapons of mass destruction ... until the radicals develop more as they pour out lying phrases of freindship and cheap oil. ...

Yes, I've grown very skeptical of peaceful coexistence with the vast majority of Islam, for it is hallmarked mostly (because of Saudi Wahhabiism, no doubt) by undercurrents of intolerance, suspicion, and fanaticism. I watch men like Mansoor Ijaz perform on the news, yet I know in my heart that he represents only the small minority practice of Islam. For the brainwashed majority, jihad is the obliteration of anything not stamp approved by the radicalized Imams, world-wide.

I hope Fallaci lives to be 120! And continues to issue these sometimes conflicted missives. Perhaps more will awaken to the truths now living themselves out on the world stage. Westerners and Islamics may yet awaken, but I'm becoming more skeptical with every treacherous move by France and Germany and Russia ... and the democrat party of America, as it tries in every way it can, to thwart this administration in order to win future elections among a possibly decimated population assaulted all the more due to democrat obstructionism and treasonous rhetoric from their deposed from rule leadership.

9 posted on 03/15/2003 4:15:54 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: blam; Alamo-Girl; backhoe; Woahhs; Victoria Delsoul; William Wallace; f.Christian; Bryan; ...
This article and thread are a long read, but, I trust, worth your time with it.
10 posted on 03/15/2003 4:18:37 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: AZLiberty
I prefer Patton's analogy about dying for this war: I (or we) won't die at the barricades of this war. Instead we will kill, we will send them back to Allah in droves. The virgin factory won't be able to keep up.

She's right about the enemies of the west which are already in the west, however. We need to treat them as the enemy that they are and deal with them on a permanent basis. They must be flushed out, and eliminated from the gene pool.

The left speaks of a coming revolution here in the US - and maybe they are right about that. How foolish on their part, since they don't own guns. But once joined, the internal warfare that they may indeed initiate will finally cleanse this land of their communist ways. For that, I would thank Bin Laden.
11 posted on 03/15/2003 4:18:39 PM PST by 11B3 (.308 holes make invisible souls. Belt fed liberal eraser.)
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To: 11B3
I sincerely hope you do not mean that last paragraph. Civil war in this day and age would be the end of the Republic.
12 posted on 03/15/2003 4:21:33 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MadIvan
"In Europe you have only one friend, one ally: Tony Blair. But Mr Blair, too, leads a country that is invaded by the Moors and hides that resentment. Even his party opposes him and, by the way, I owe you an apology, Mr Blair.

I owe it to you because in my book The Rage and the Pride, I have been unfair to you."

Oriana was very hard on Blair in her book and it is good to see that she has modified her view of the PM and readily admits it. I recommend her book to all. That woman can write.
13 posted on 03/15/2003 4:22:09 PM PST by wolf24
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To: MadIvan
What you quietly call “differences of opinion” are in reality pure hate... Do you know why? Europe is no longer Europe. It is a province of Islam, as Spain and Portugal were at the time of the Moors.

In a large sense, she is very correct.

Europe has forsaken it's Christian roots and replaced them with the shallow tendrils of secular humanism, which is best exemplified by their socialism. They have lost their moral compass, so they don't even know which way to turn to get back home.

The Islamics have merely seen the wide-open rotting breach and poured their alien masses through into a decaying civilization which they intend to eventually rule by the bloody sword.

14 posted on 03/15/2003 4:30:36 PM PST by Gritty
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To: MHGinTN
Good article.

BTTT

15 posted on 03/15/2003 4:36:38 PM PST by mommadooo3
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To: MHGinTN
My goodness, what an article. It was so long I almost didn't read it but I sure am glad I did.

MM

16 posted on 03/15/2003 4:40:09 PM PST by MississippiMan
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To: MadIvan
Oriana started to see the light when she wrote her book on Lebanon and the horrors commited by the Muslims there. My, she has certainly come around to the right! As many of us have...
17 posted on 03/15/2003 4:40:30 PM PST by eleni121
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To: MadIvan
Wow. I got really scared after reading that. I feel we are very alone, and most of Europe will be Muslim in 50 years. These idiot peaceniks HERE need to knock it off.

Ivan, your posts are excellent.
18 posted on 03/15/2003 4:42:30 PM PST by Lanza
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To: MadIvan
"When in the name of peace we surrender to violence, tyranny, when in the name of peace we resign to fear, we give up dignity and freedom, it is no longer peace. It’s suicide. "

Patrick Henry redux - and truer words were never spoken.
19 posted on 03/15/2003 4:48:51 PM PST by SarahW
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To: MHGinTN
I LOVE Oriana! Thanks for the Ping.

Last time there was an Oriana thread....I posted the entire Rage & Pride.

I will just include a link this time :)

http://www.borg.com/%7Epaperina/fallaci/fallaci_1.html
20 posted on 03/15/2003 4:58:16 PM PST by Calpernia
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To: MadIvan
I agree with some of her points but I disagree with just as much.

How can she compare the USSR's presence in Afghanistan to ours? The USSR did ask the women to take off their Burka's, but they did not liberate the Afghan people, they merely went to impose a different form of oppression: communism.

Her article is full of a kind of European chauvinism, that some how Europeans have the capacity to appreciate liberty but that the people in the middle east aren't. She completely glosses over how we established freedom in Japan, and complete ignores that we created or help maintain the viability of democracies in many places in Asia, such as South Korea, Taiwan, Phillipines, etc, none of which have a historical affinity for liberty prior to our arrival.

She goes on about how liberty was "returned" to the Eurpoeans and that in the Middle East they never had it and therefore won't really want it.
I say she is wrong. Human being are born with the asperation to be free, that longing is in all of us, including those living under tyranny in the middle east.

21 posted on 03/15/2003 5:06:04 PM PST by Truthsearcher
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: MadIvan
I love this woman.
23 posted on 03/15/2003 5:20:40 PM PST by marron
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To: Truthsearcher
Perhaps the years/lifetimes lived under Islamic law in one form or fashion, while living under political despots has cause the desire new take root, to be truly free and allow neighbors to be truly free to worship the religion of their choosing. Little will be accomplished by giving free elections to people who live under theocratic rule self imposed then transferred to religious Imams. Look at Iran. The struggle for real freedom is in real danger of being suppressed yet again. Religious totalitarianism is more insidious to root out of the psyche than the iron fist of political totalitarianism. The Middle East is hallmarked by religious totalitarianism, Islamism. The radicals outnumber the 'jihad is a personal quest of the soul' Islamists.
24 posted on 03/15/2003 5:26:16 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
Obviously it take some time and it's a process, you don't expect a new born baby to be able to handle the rigorous of life, you nurture him and teach him and protect him until he grows up.

I don't expect the Iraq (or any Mid East nation) to transform into a western democracy overnight. But with our help over time it will happen.

25 posted on 03/15/2003 5:31:42 PM PST by Truthsearcher
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To: MadIvan
Excellent article, since 9/11 I've come to be an admirer of Oriana Fallaci, hadn't heard of her before.

As for wars of survival, the situation is not nearly so grim. So far we're fighting a relative handfull of cave dwelling extremists.

I don't disagree with Fallaci's characterizaion of islam as a primitive cult of mindless godbots, but the fact of the matter is, now that 9/11 awoke America from our PC stupor, islam simply cannot mobilize the force necessary to seriously threaten our civilization. If they were even fractionally capable of this kind of effort, Israel would have ceased to exist long ago.

That being said, Europe may eventually be swallowed up by islamic immigration and birth rates, but I suspect they'll be awoken by their own 9/11 type attacks before its too late.

At least now its fair to call Islam the malevolent virus that it is. Imagine saying that before 9/11!

26 posted on 03/15/2003 5:31:42 PM PST by rageaholic
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To: rageaholic
May I offer a freindly observation?...

If they were even fractionally capable of this kind of effort, Israel would have ceased to exist long ago. You might want to incorporate one equation into your calculus: we hold nuclear weapons but would not nuke Mecca or Damascus or Baghdad as suicide murderers slaughter scores of our citizenry, but if the jihadis were to mobilize more than the proxy Palestinians to do their dirty work in Israel, the Israelis would use their nukes that way. Never underestimate the bloodlust of the radical Islamics, for if we were nuetralized, they would instantly turn to Tel Aviv as a next target, willingly sacrificing millions of fellow Arabs to eliminate Israel and then rule the world in Sharia law. Do you think the French would stand up to them? hardly

27 posted on 03/15/2003 5:39:57 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MadIvan
What an amazing woman! She takes my breath away!
28 posted on 03/15/2003 5:44:10 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- I don't own any "assault rifles," just Homeland Defense Rifles. It's my patriotic duty. ---)
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To: MHGinTN
Tel Aviv as a next target, willingly sacrificing millions of fellow Arabs to eliminate Israel and then rule the world in Sharia law

That's been their goal for as long as I can remember, and that's my point. Even a billion muslims can't crush a tiny Western nation like Israel.

29 posted on 03/15/2003 5:51:05 PM PST by rageaholic
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To: MHGinTN
Do you think the French would stand up to them? hardly

Not at the present. But they have in the past, remember Charles Martel and the Moors at Tours.

30 posted on 03/15/2003 5:53:53 PM PST by rageaholic
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To: MHGinTN; habs4ever; SAMWolf; Sabertooth; ArneFufkin; Alberta's Child
The modern concepts of freedom and democracy are totally unrelated to the ideological texture of Islam, and totally opposed to the despotism and tyranny of theocratic states. In that ideological texture, it is God who commands, it is God who decides the destiny of man, and men are not the children of God: they are his subjects, his slaves. Inshallah - as God wants - inshallah.

Thus in the Koran there is no room for individual judgment, individual choice and freedom. There is no room for a regime that, at least in law, is based on equality and universal suffrage. In fact Muslims do not understand these modern concepts. They refuse them and hope to erase them from our lives by invading and conquering us.

Thanks Marvin. Another good article by Oriana Fallaci. She is right about the Muslims, and she is also right with her assertion that America has been attacked and has the right to defend itself. As she well stated, "this is not a liberation war, a war like the second world war. (By the way: neither is it an 'oil war', as the pacifists who never yell against Saddam or Bin Laden maintain in their rallies. Americans do not need Iraqi oil.) It is a political war. A war made in cold blood to respond to the holy war that the enemies of the West declared upon the West on September 11. "

And to those who say, there is no connection between Saddam and Al-Qaeda, let's not forget that Saddam had connections with Al-Qaeda and supports and finances terrorism. He has rewarded each Palestinian terrorist's family with $25,000, plus he has never disarmed or complied with the UN resolutions. Under Chapter VII charter of the UN the same UN resolutions which Saddam has failed to comply over the last 12 years specifically authorizes its enforcement by "all necessary means."

31 posted on 03/15/2003 5:59:52 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Victoria Delsoul
Bump for an excellent article.

Though I would ask all Freepers to avoid any references to U.N. mandates when it comes to this topic. Just as the United States should never be constrained by the U.N. in pursuing its own interests in the world, neither should it ever use a "mandate" (or even 10,000 mandates) from that useless organization to justify military action.

32 posted on 03/15/2003 6:47:47 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: MHGinTN
Wonderful Signora Italiana BTTT
33 posted on 03/15/2003 6:54:33 PM PST by wardaddy (careful of the black flag....those threads are nasty)
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To: Victoria Delsoul
we have realised too late that our values are in danger

Too many still don't realize it.

34 posted on 03/15/2003 7:02:23 PM PST by SAMWolf (The French are cordially invited to come to Wisconsin and smell our dairy air)
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To: Alberta's Child
Though I would ask all Freepers to avoid any references to U.N. mandates when it comes to this topic. Just as the United States should never be constrained by the U.N. in pursuing its own interests in the world, neither should it ever use a "mandate" (or even 10,000 mandates) from that useless organization to justify military action.

You're right about that. However, Bush SR's pursuit of the UN mandate when Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990 brought us where we are today. Thus this is a continuation of the Gulf War, which ended with a ceasefire in 1991. The terms of which specified Saddam's immediate disarmament of all weapons of mass destruction.

35 posted on 03/15/2003 7:06:30 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: SAMWolf
Too many still don't realize it.

That's unfortunately true.

36 posted on 03/15/2003 7:08:09 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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She paints an overly dark picture, perhaps to capture attention and make some good points. But her near-doom conclusion overlooks an important fact: Whether or not the people of Iraq are ready to earn its freedom, the people of Iran ARE ready and most likely will be able to form a functional democratic form of government, if/when they are able to depose the current regime.
37 posted on 03/15/2003 7:16:48 PM PST by Diddle E. Squat
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To: Victoria Delsoul
You're right. What is interesting, though, is that I was critical of George Bush Sr. in 1991 for the same reason I've been critical of George W. Bush in 2003 -- If it is in the best interests of the U.S. to wage war against a foreign nation, then why get the U.N. involved in the first place? Look at the difficult position that President Bush now finds himself in -- after making that case that it was important to go through the U.N., he now has to explain why it is important to ignore them.

And even if we were able to secure U.N. approval, why the heck would we ever want the U.N. to enforce a cease-fire agreement under any circumstances?

38 posted on 03/15/2003 7:17:35 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Alberta's Child
If it is in the best interests of the U.S. to wage war against a foreign nation, then why get the U.N. involved in the first place?

I agree. I don't like the UN either.

39 posted on 03/15/2003 7:20:25 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Victoria Delsoul
On a side note, I think the FreeRepublic Quote of the Month goes to someone who posted this gem on a thread about the Elizabeth Smart case:

"It's a good thing Hans Blix wasn't in charge of the search effort -- that poor girl would have been lost forever."

40 posted on 03/15/2003 7:24:34 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: MadIvan; zot
In a world of yappy talking heads and interchangeable pundits, Oriana Fallaci stands alone.
41 posted on 03/15/2003 7:25:42 PM PST by Interesting Times (Eagles Up! Join the Rally for America...)
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To: Alberta's Child
Well, remember it wasn't the police who found her but the public who watched the TV show "most wanted" and recognized David Brian Mitchell's face. By the way, there is so much about this case then what we have been told. The media keeps calling her "little girl" yet, the parents and relatives called her "young woman."
42 posted on 03/15/2003 7:30:05 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Alberta's Child
then= than
43 posted on 03/15/2003 7:32:15 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Victoria Delsoul
I know -- I just thought that was a funny quote. LOL.

I've gone through a lot of threads on that case, and I agree with you -- there is a lot about it that we haven't heard. In fact, there was something fishy about that story last year, but I never questioned it because it would have been in bad taste with a missing child involved.

Now that she's back home, I'd say it's even more strange.
44 posted on 03/15/2003 7:38:29 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Alberta's Child
I never questioned it because it would have been in bad taste with a missing child involved.

Now that she's back home, I'd say it's even more strange.

That's why I don't post on those threads. The last buzzword is that she was brainwashed. I have never seen or read a case when someone so brainwashed could behave as if nothing has happened in a matter of minutes after the cops talked to her. Her photos look better and more cheerful than before this ordeal. I just don't know what to think, but it doesn't sound right.

45 posted on 03/15/2003 7:45:47 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Truthsearcher
She completely glosses over how we established freedom in Japan

No she doesn't. Perhaps you skipped over this part of her article:

In Japan, those two pieces of chocolate were somehow a gift, a refund for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But Japan had already started its march towards progress and did not belong to the world that in my book I call “the mountain”. A mountain that for 1,400 years has not moved or changed, has not emerged from the abyss of its blindness. In other words, Islam

She points out is that Japan was not part of that unmoveable "mountain" that is Islam. So they had the possiblity to change, and they did.

It is naive to think that 1400 years of an oppressive, intolerant religious tradition called Islam will be changed over night.

46 posted on 03/15/2003 7:56:32 PM PST by stripes1776
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To: MHGinTN
Thanks for the heads up!
47 posted on 03/15/2003 8:06:53 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Victoria Delsoul
I think you are a very discerning person. Or a good judge of character. Or both!
48 posted on 03/15/2003 8:21:39 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: MadIvan
Great post.
49 posted on 03/15/2003 8:30:37 PM PST by Nachum
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To: Alberta's Child
:-)
50 posted on 03/15/2003 8:41:37 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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