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To: Luis Gonzalez; Victoria Delsoul; William Wallace; All
Luis, I read this thread out of respect for our friendship, not because I was looking for answers or meaning in the morass presented by Islam facing off with the rest of civilization. ... And if the bin Laden's and Wahhabist and radical Imams have their way, that is the future of this planet, Islam waging war (with suicide murderers as their primary weapon) against Western Civilization.

I think I've offered the following in some form before here at FR, and I got everything from vile flames to thanks in return. I'm a tough old bird, so the responses aren't what I seek. Here goes, again. [HINT: if the reader doesn't like 'religious things' or Bible related things, then stop here and move on.]

A very significant event in the Eden Garden needs to be understood, to understand why Islam is both successful and insidious. In Christian tradition, the whole 'fruit from the Tree Of Knowledge of Good and Evil' episode has come to mean women and men are at opposition where family is concerned, and man sinned willingly whereas the woman was duped. The reality is much deeper, and failure to recognize what is so deep is to miss that which is at the heart of the human condition throughout all of history. [What is to follow isn't new, early Church teachers dealt with it, but it is not vogue today.]

If we look at the way the serpent posed his argument, his persuasion, we discover the demonic brilliance of his accomplishment (in causing the first human family to fall from their state of grace), but we will also see the seeds of his ultimate final defeat.

GE 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, `You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
GE 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, `You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
GE 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

While obedient, the first human couple was in a state of grace, not in need of salvation from anything, but that doesn't mean they were at their full potential else they would not have fallen from Grace. The serpent's task was to foment disobedience by some means. He appealed to the intrinsic yet untried nature of human beings, their pride in capability (not a sin in that expression), their pride in self ('Love your neighbor as you love yourself'). He pricked her (and thus, later, Adam's also) pride by calling God a liar, inferring that her Creator had not been truthful with her, had withheld from them some great state of existence that they could achieve through their own actions, not by gift from their Creator. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God ..."

What the serpent invited Eve to do had many layers of possibility in it: she could follow through and disobey, but Adam not disobey, thus driving a fatal wedge between the creatures God created to live in harmony; she could disobey and eat of the fruit, then stand in superior position (in her mind) to the man, thus destroying the inherent harmony God had created between man and woman; she could obey under threat of death, never again trusting God due to tension the unresolved issues foment; she could ... well, you get the picture. What she did was disobey, then enlist the man to follow along also. But what was the great temptation that brought it all to fruition?... 'You shall be as God', without God's gift of such an exalted position, the very position Satan aspires to!

Two scripture passages to be found in different locations of the New Testament lend insight: "Many are called, but few are chosen"; "Faithful is He that calleth you, for He will also do it". If so many are called/invited to become the children of God, why are so few chosen/born into Christ's family?... Because so few will let Him do it! So few will let Him save them as they seek to save themselves, seek to place God in debt to them.

Christianity is all about accepting a gift, to allow God to sanctify us. Islam is all about doing it yourself, making your self righteous enough to please God and receive the 'paradisical rewards.' It was never intend thus, for that would render Christ's blood, Christ's Cross, of no import in the final reality of the universe.

If a religion or sect or cult promotes bootstrap salvation, it is a blasphemy toward Christ and Him crucified for us, for our salvation. In reading the Koran and Mohammed's receiving of the directions for righteousness, we see immediately the same subtle lie and temptation offered to the first human family.

If Jihad means anything to a Moslem, it means obedience results in God owing the Moslem a debt of Paradise. If Paradise can be reached by works of obedience, then the Cross is of no regard. That's blasphemy toward the Lord of Heaven, the Christ of our Salvation. Add the instruction to force all to obey allah and there is no doubt that the one who would force obeisance is not the Author of the gift of Salvation in Christ Jesus.

[One last aside: it is interesting that Islam and Judaism come from the children of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac; one through a son of rebellion, as one born by natural means, from a woman not included in the original promise to Abram and Sarai, the other through a son who fulfilled God's promise, a son dedicated to God by his father, a son who finally submitted his will, voluntarily, to be God's man through whom He would in the fullness of time bring His Son. That contrast is to be found beginning in the Eden Garden, and the origin of our fall from Grace but the ultimate seed of Satan's defeat. For it is by Grace you are saved, not by works lest any man should boast. If ANY descendant of Adam could boast his own salvation, the Cross would be nullified. Even Jesus said 'Thy will be done' and 'Into Thy hands I commend my spirit.' Never will you find Jesus even implying that God is compelled to save even him. No where is it written that salvation through Christ is to be forced.]

156 posted on 03/27/2003 9:54:28 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Brad Cloven; Eagle Eye; TLBSHOW; Ga Rob; SarahW; Paul Ross; EternalVigilance
Ping-a-ling
157 posted on 03/27/2003 10:39:00 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Sabertooth
Ping to #155
194 posted on 03/28/2003 10:26:12 AM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
"If Paradise can be reached by works of obedience, then the Cross is of no regard. That's blasphemy toward the Lord of Heaven, the Christ of our Salvation."

This is where I just stop and wonder what we are all thinking.

This is exactly what we as Christians believe, but we can't think along these lines when we are discussing people who do not believe in Christ. Whether they are Muslims, or Jews, or Buddhists or whatever.

Imagine that a Muslim is reading half of what we write about God on this forum, and he is outraged by our blasphemy...his reaction to our religion is as irrelevant to us, as our our reaction to his is to him.

We are not here to fight Satan on Earth, the Bible tells us when that will happen, we are fighting men with twisted beliefs...period.

214 posted on 03/28/2003 5:54:54 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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