Wolfowitz in Skopje – What Next for Macedonia?

antiwar.com ^ | May 20, 2003 | Christopher Deliso

[yonorono]

So any Croatian force is "Ustashi"? Ridiculous.

[DestroyEraseImprove]

When did Tudman form the ZNG(Zbor Narodne Garde)?

What kind of insignia did those forces use and what kind of image were they presenting to the Krajina Serbs and to the rest of the serbian population in Croatia?

What do you think, what kind of feelings did a Serb had seeing the ZNG and remembering that a large part of his family was killed by the Ustashi a few decades ago during WWII?

[yonorono]

When did Tudman form the ZNG(Zbor Narodne Garde)?

When his party was elected in the first free elections in Croatia.

What kind of insignia did those forces use and what kind of image were they presenting to the Krajina Serbs and to the rest of the serbian population in Croatia?

They used the checkerboard, the insignia of Croatia since the 8h Century.

What do you think, what kind of feelings did a Serb had seeing the ZNG and remembering that a large part of his family was killed by the Ustashi a few decades ago during WWII?

Probably the same feelings that the Croats had when seeing Seselj's boys parading around in the Chetnik kokarda...next question?

BTW, your points utterly fail to equate the ZNG to the Ustashi, but you know that anyway.... :)

Kako ide? Nismo pricali od davno....bit cu u Zurich-u za mjesec dana.

[DestroyEraseImprove]

A ti si jarane?! Pa sto nekazes bre brate. Bio sam juce u Basel-u. Sta radis u Svajcarskoj?

When his party was elected in the first free elections in Croatia.

So which year? Could you tell me the exact date the ZNG, a paramilitary and illeagal force at that time, was formed?

They used the checkerboard, the insignia of Croatia since the 8h Century.

Yes, the Ustasha's used them as well and murdered a few hundred thousand Serbs by the way. Their aim was the complete extermination of Serbs.

Probably the same feelings that the Croats had when seeing Seselj's boys parading around in the Chetnik kokarda...next question?

Do you want to say there were two genocides during WWII in the former Yugoslavia? Or are you just mixing up victim and perpetrator? Did the royal Chetnik forces commit systematic genocide on the croatian population during WWII? What kind of state or country, were the royal Chetnik forces under Mihajlovic in charge of? Did you realy believe the Serbs would just stand by without forming resistance and whatch the Tudman's Neo-Ustasha's complete Pavelic's bloody work? Dream on.

BTW, your points utterly fail to equate the ZNG to the Ustashi, but you know that anyway.... :)

Yes, you are absolutely right. There's no need to equate them, because they are one and the same.

Pavelic's Ustashe = Tudman's ZNG = Neo-Ustashe

Croatia is almost 'Serbenfrei'. Task acomplished. Where's Mile Budak these days?

[yonorono]

So which year? Could you tell me the exact date the ZNG, a paramilitary and illeagal force at that time, was formed?

1990. Same year that the Serbian paramilitaries were formed.

Yes, the Ustasha's used them as well and murdered a few hundred thousand Serbs by the way.

Just because they used them doesn't mean that we can't use them again.

Their aim was the complete extermination of Serbs.

No it wasn't. It was to cleanse the Serbs out. Big difference.

Do you want to say there were two genocides during WWII in the former Yugoslavia? Or are you just mixing up victim and perpetrator? Did the royal Chetnik forces commit systematic genocide on the croatian population during WWII?

Wherever they marched, they murdered with abandon, just like the Ustashi, and they killed their fellow Serbs too.

What kind of state or country, were the royal Chetnik forces under Mihajlovic in charge of?

No state. It was anarchy.

Did you realy believe the Serbs would just stand by without forming resistance and whatch the Tudman's Neo-Ustasha's complete Pavelic's bloody work? Dream on.

I never suggested that the Serbs would "stand by". And again, the neo-Ustashe thing is wrong as Tudjman, Bobetko, etc., all fought the Ustashe. Can't have it both ways.

Yes, you are absolutely right. There's no need to equate them, because they are one and the same. Pavelic's Ustashe = Tudman's ZNG = Neo-Ustashe

Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true. You're gonna have to back up your accusation.

Croatia is almost 'Serbenfrei'. Task acomplished.

200,000 Serbs in Croatia today. How many Croats in Republika Srpska?

[DestroyEraseImprove]

1990. Same year that the Serbian paramilitaries were formed.

The ZNG was formed officialy by the head of the Republic, Franjo Tudman. The local Serbs formed their units as a response to the arisen Neo-Ustasha's in Zagreb and because they feared a repeat of WWII events. Big difference. Can you give me the exact date the ZNG was formed?

Just because they used them doesn't mean that we can't use them again.

I didn't say they can't be used again. I just explained what kind of psychological effect these symbols had for the Serbs.

No it wasn't. It was to cleanse the Serbs out. Big difference.

Their aim was to exterminate every serbian trace from the area they were officialy in control of. That area corresponded to the borders of the so called NDH. One third was to be expelled, one third was to be catholized and the last third was to be killed.

Wherever they marched, they murdered with abandon, just like the Ustashi, and they killed their fellow Serbs too.

Communist propanganda and an attempt to equate the fascist Ustasha's with royal Chetniks. The royal Chetniks under Mihajlovic were not in charge of a state or country, they were a guerilla force. As to the Ustasha's, they were officialy in carge of this territory:

And again, the neo-Ustashe thing is wrong as Tudjman, Bobetko, etc., all fought the Ustashe.

And that proves what exactly? We're talking about turncoat communists here and you give them way too much credibilty and integrity. They were communist when young and turned into fascist neo-ustashas in the ages. An alternative way to reach political maturity, isn't it.

Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true. You're gonna have to back up your accusation.

We should leave this chapter for the historians.

200,000 Serbs in Croatia today. How many Croats in Republika Srpska?

Tell me. How many Serbs in Croatia before 1941 and today? How many Serbs in Republika Srpska before 1941 and today?

[Hoplite]

Now Hoplite, I realize that giving direct answers to questions isn't your strong suit, but I thought this one was pretty easy even for you. So why not give it the old college try?

And here I was thinking my response was an answer in the form of a challenge.

My bad - I'll lower the bar so you can get across.

Economic Damage - the city of Vukovar alone, destroyed by the incompetent Seriban assault in the Fall of 1991 will serve as a good starting point - find another city in Croatia that was devastated as Vukovar was after Croatia's recognition. If you prefer to tally up burned villages instead, we can do that too.

Deaths - again, in Vukovar, the city's police recorded 520 corpses for transportation to the city's only available burial ground, which excludes those unrecoverable in the fighting. Of those 520, 156 were Croatian National Guard, and 24 police, leaving at least 340 civilians killed in the 3 month seige of Vukovar. Add to that the 250 odd POWs murdered at Ovcara after the Hospital fell, and you've got 590 non-combatant deaths, just in one city in Eastern Croatia, mind you, that you will have to match in order to prove your "worse after" positon in this category. Knock yourself out - I've got a whole 1/3rd of Croatia being either fought over or ethnically cleansed from June through December of '91 to play with. This one should be a no-brainer for even you, Inquest.

Refugees - by December of 1991, Croatia had seen the displacement of 500,000 Croats and 230,000 Serbs. Again, this one is a no-brainer.

So when I said you should pick a category, I hope it has become clear to you that what I was looking for was some data driving your position, rather than a repeated reference to a bare bones (and erroneous, btw) timeline that does nothing to support your position.

If you define "simpleton" as someone who can follow simple logic and answer simple questions, I can see why you might feel so alone around here.

If you don't know what a petard is, now would be a good time to grab the dictionary - it's become relevant to you.

So the gauntlet is down, Inquest, and picking it up will require some actual skull sweat and creative accounting or an admission of error on your part - sucks to be you.

[Hoplite]

I mean, were the Krajina Serbs ready to countenance the Ustashas in uniform in their midst in 1991?

yonorono seems to have stolen my thunder on this one.

Ah well, you two can understand each other's lingo, so I'll leave you two to it and Inquest can blame me for your inability to compromise and reach an understanding.

Whoa, deja vu.

[yonorono]

Hey Hoppy.

[DestroyEraseImprove]

yonorono seems to have stolen my thunder on this one

wet gun powder

Ah well, you two can understand each other's lingo, so I'll leave you two to it and Inquest can blame me for your inability to compromise and reach an understanding.

Whoa, deja vu.

Whoa, a nice little metaphor. yonorone and me as the ever fighting Croat and Serb. You, on the other hand, the caring American, just interested in finding a compromise for the locals and ending the dispute between the uncivilized barbarians. And of course with no own agenda whatsoever. Just like the State Department version of Balkan history. Cute.

[Hoplite]

You guys went all Itchy and Scratchy and got McDonalds.

I guess you could sum it up that way.

[DestroyEraseImprove]

There used to be an McDonalds in Jagodina until recently. Just a few weeks ago they closed it down unfortunately. I guess they couldn't make enough profit.

Doso amerikanac u Srbiju, da prodaje pljeskavicu u lepinji! ;)

[inquest]

Thank you for giving me a rundown of events prior to December '91. You still haven't answered my question, though. I was asking you if things were worse before than after recognition. Really, simple question. Shouldn't take 5 paragraphs to answer.

If you don't know what a petard is, now would be a good time to grab the dictionary - it's become relevant to you.

What's that? More hot air? Gee, didn't see that coming.

[yonorono]

Things were worse in Croatia before recognition.

[inquest]

Thanks, we'll see if Hoplite concurs.

[Hoplite]

Well let me flip a coin here.

Heads.

That means I concur with yonorono's statment.

[Hoplite]

Doso amerikanac u Srbiju, da prodaje pljeskavicu u lepinji! ;)

If that translates into "I bet you can't decypher this using online Serbo-Croatian/English Dictionaries", you were right.

Both Americans and Serbs make hamburger-like foods?

[inquest]

Well, golly. That only took what - three posts? I knew you had it in you.

You're of course correct that following the ceasefire that went into effect at recognition time, things in Croatia quieted considerably. Until -- a little party that broke out on August 8, 1995, and continued for quite some time afterwards. Hint: it was done by "our" guys.

And the fact that it was followed by over three years without serious incident in that country makes it all the more remarkable.

[inquest]

Sorry, correction. The last sentence should read, "the fact that it was preceded by over three years..." (not "followed")

[ehoxha]

Got any pictures or actual proof of our having armed the ANA?

what is most intereting is Hoplite demands extraordinary levels of proof when it comes to KLA crimes.

On the other hand Hoplite accepted the most outlandish tales from Clinton without a shred of evidence.

Hoplite, when will you finally accept that arming, funding, training, and promoting the likes of Remi, Ramush, Drini, Ceku, and Thaci was a bad idea ?