Posted on 08/22/2003 2:22:56 AM PDT by JohnHuang2
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments."
– James Madison
Alabama's Chief Justice Roy Moore is a national hero.
He became one in 1995 when, as a circuit-court judge in the state, he placed a hand-carved wooden plaque of the Ten Commandments on his courtroom wall.
That act set off legal challenges that led to him becoming known as "The Ten Commandments Judge" and eventually his election by the people of the state to the top judicial position in Alabama.
It should have surprised no one when, upon assuming his new position as chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court, he installed a two-ton, washing-machine-sized granite monument of the Ten Commandments in the courthouse.
Predictably, the American Civil Liberties Union and Americans United for Separation of Church and State filed suits against Moore, charging his action violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Last month, the U.S. 11th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled against Moore and ordered him to remove the monument. Moore vowed once again to fight the ruling.
Is there any validity to the charge that positioning the Ten Commandments in a state courthouse violates the First Amendment?
The First Amendment states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
For starters, Congress never entered the equation when Moore made his decision to erect the monument. Secondly, and most importantly, which religion is established by the posting of the Ten Commandments?
The Ten Commandments are not only revered by all believing Christians and Jews, they are the very basis of Western civilization and, more specifically, the cornerstone of American self-government.
Just ask James Madison, the author of the U.S. Constitution. He said the founders staked their entire experiment – and it remains an experiment more than 200 years later – of self-government. The only alternative to a free society of individuals governing themselves under the simple yet profound precepts of the Ten Commandments, he understood, was a society coerced to behave by the power of government.
That's what the debate is all about in Alabama today. Do we wish to live in a society of self-governing individuals who behave themselves because of a consensus around some eternal truths, an absolute morality, a simple code of right and wrong uniting people of many faiths? Or, do we prefer to live under the rule of men and a system of ever-changing, always-evolving morality and subject to the whims of unaccountable judges and the fads and fashions of democracy?
That's the choice. We can argue whether Judge Moore made the right tactical or strategic legal choices, as one Southern Baptist leader has done. But this fight and this choice is much more important than that. There's a much bigger issue at stake – that issue is what kind of a country we want.
I want the kind of a country James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and our founders envisioned for us. That's what Judge Roy Moore wants, too.
It's time for Americans to rally around this man, his cause and tell the ACLU to take its meddling to some other country.
America was founded on the principle of self-government. We can't have self-government without the Ten Commandments, without biblical principles of right and wrong, without a basic code of morality.
This is not a question of separation of church and state. No church is being established in Alabama or the U.S. when we acknowledge the power and principality of the Ten Commandments in our lives and in the life of our country.
Cut and run from what? A liberal atheist?
Last I heard Madalyn Murray O'Hare was supposed to be dead. Did she rise from the grave to go after Judge Moore?
So tell us Non-Seq, who do admire more? Not that is not self evident by now.
Well, I waited 20 minutes for a response, so I figured you have cut and run. Since I figure you will figure out a way to equate Judge Moore to Jeff Davis in the meantime, I will reply in about 24 hours, if that is okay with you?
Not cut and run, just working for a living. To answer your question I don't think much of either one.
I know. Wyandotte County just north of me moved their 10 Commandments monument from the county building grounds to the church right across the street. And your point is?
It also, by necessity, uses one version of the text and reads as follows...
Why by necessity? Why is it necessary to favor one sect of Christianity over another?
My point is that it's truly a shame that they would have to move them in the first place seeing as there is precedent to keep them and strong examples of where they have been kept.
Why by necessity?
Because, seeing as their are multiple versions of the text and translation, any display of one of them will by necessity exclude the texts not displayed.
That is all the time you gave me to respond and make your wise remark. Anyways, I always figured you were on a government pension with all the time you have to post.
To answer your question I don't think much of either one.
That's okay, I didn't think you would have to courage to answer them anyways. They left little room to wiggle. Liberals are like that.
Nobody gives a damn as to what version of the Ten Commandments that are displayed there, except the ultra-left wing nuts such as yourself for ulterior purposes. I would be glad to have your version up there as a matter of fact, but I don't think you are truthful about that anyways. Both of them recognizes God, which is the main point in the whole exercise. Once again you show your colors as a phony in my opinion
Oh you mean my pension as a retired officer in the United States Navy? I'm not sure why you seem to think I should be ashamed of a pension for serving my government, other than the fact that from your standpoint it would be the 'Yankee gubmint'.
Too lazy to look up actual facts for yourself? It would take about 30 seconds with google to find all three versions on line, and about another hour and a half for you to read the three versions. Then you would have to clean the finger prints off the screen and all the rest, but still, with a little initiative you could have seen for yourself. But initiative is not a sothron strongpoint. The south gonna rise again...someday...maybe...when we get around to it...
I can hardly wait.
So Judge Moore, by definition, is favoring one sect over another. And using a public building to do it.
Him and every other ten commandments monument. In the bigger picture there are fortunately enough of them to represent all the different versions. So if you version isn't the one in Alabama, find one somewhere else that is.
Utter nonsense. The Supreme Court manages to skirt the controversy by showing tablets with the numerals 1 through 10 on them, thus recognizing the importance of the 10 Commandments to our society without endorsing one version as more correct than another. Had Judge Moore done the same then I doubt that the ACLU would have had a leg to stand on. It's when he endorsed one sect over another the I believe he crossed the line.
Display the ten commandments by leaving their words off all together. Sound's like a winner to me!
BTW, did you bother to look at the Texas capitol monument - you know, the one that is BIGGER than Moore's, has its own version of the text, and has been upheld as perfectly constitutional in federal court?
You forgot to destroy the mural in the U.S. Capital rotunda that shows the pilgrims standing around the New Testament, or
The mural next to it that depicts the baptism of Pocahontas, or
The removal of the the only carving on Washington's tome, a reference to a statement by Jesus Christ in the New Testament, or
Lincoln's second inauguaral address in the Lincoln Monument, or
Agree by law that those religious verses in the National Anthem were never part of the song when it was adopted, or
Agree by law that Websters famous dictionary and blueback speller, which promoted Christianity on almost page were not basic texts in most US public schools for decades, or
Agree that rights come from the consensus of public opinion, not from God and unalienable.
Do we have to believe that Budhism gave us the concept of a God whose laws supercede those of Parlament? Or, that Hinduism gave us the concept of human equality that gave us the moral force to throw off slavery, in order to not be establishing a religion?
Endorsing one version of the 10 Commandments over the others, placing one sect in a official position of superiority over others? Sound unconstitutional to me.
BTW, did you bother to look at the Texas capitol monument - you know, the one that is BIGGER than Moore's, has its own version of the text, and has been upheld as perfectly constitutional in federal court?
Well, if what you claim is true then why didn't Moore appeal his case, using the Texas monument as precedent? Or is the good judge more interested in the publicity than the scripture?
And exactly what part of the constitution does it violate, non-seq? It certainly cannot be the "Congress shall make no law" part as Justice Moore is neither Congress nor did he make any law.
Well, if what you claim is true then why didn't Moore appeal his case, using the Texas monument as precedent?
I don't know if he did or not. I do strongly suspect that it was cited somewhere in the arguments in his favor. But if you doubt me, look it up. Do a search on the 10 commandments monument at the Texas capitol. You will find that the same left wing atheist wackos involved here tried to remove it a year ago and LOST.
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