Jews for Allah

Jewsweek ^ | 9-9-03

[SJackson]

	October 7, 2003

Home > Society

Jews for Allah

It began as a joke, but it's now all too real. Adopting the same methodology of Jews for Jesus, a Web site is trying to tell you it's OK to be a Jew and follow Mohammed too.

by Alexandra Alter

October 3, 2003

It began as sort of a joke. Mohamed Ghounem, 32, a mild-mannered, laid-off telecom worker who lives with his wife and daughter in suburban Connecticut, says it was the headline "Christ Converts to Islam" in the satirical newspaper The Onion that gave him the idea for his Web site, JewsforAllah.com.

At first, he laughed. Then he thought, "Why not?" Ghounem, whose religious pedigree includes a year of study at al-Azhar, the world's foremost institute of Sunni Islamic learning, said he felt frustrated by Muslims' lack of evangelical activity.

		The curious conversion

		Jewsforallah.com

Although Muslims are the world's fastest growing religious group with more than a billion adherents, they haven't been active enough in the battle for Jewish souls, Ghounem says. "Muslims haven't been doing it," he says. "The Muslim attitude, unfortunately, was 'Jews will never convert'."

But why target Jews, fellow monotheists whose faith is regarded by many as Islam's closest relative, and who the Quran describes as "People of the Book?" According to Ghounem's reasoning, to help the Jews, who remain dangerously ignorant of Mohammed's prophecy, and, in the long run, to turn Israel into an Islamic state.

Ghounem's goals, while seen by many as laughably far-fetched, have outraged leaders of Jewish counter-missionary groups who have already been fighting off Christian evangelists for decades and are wary of new attempts to convert Jews by aggressive or deceptive means.

A fervent admirer of Moishe Rosen, the founder of the messianic group Jews for Jesus, Ghounem has studied the groups' tactics and adopted their rhetoric. Like Jews for Jesus, an organization renowned for claiming a Jew who believes in Jesus is a "completed Jew," Ghounem says converts can maintain their Jewish cultural identity and observe Jewish holidays. He stresses Judaism and Islam's shared lineage of prophets and their similar dietary laws. And, in language almost identical to his Christian mentors, he insists that a true Jew follows Mohammed.

"If you're a true Torah follower, you'll believe in Mohammed, because he's predicted in the Torah," Ghounem says.

He also argues Jews can liberate themselves from the stringent demands of their religion by embracing Islam. "The holy Quran is a mercy to Jews," Ghounem says. "A lot of the things in the Torah, they're not going to have to do anymore."

The suggestion that Judaism's proximity to Islam justifies conversion remains odious to many, however, who see Ghounem's efforts as an affront to both religions. "What this guy is doing is a disservice to both faith systems," says Scott Hillman, executive director of Jews for Judaism, a group that seeks to educate and protect Jews from evangelical groups. "If he's going to say, 'Judaism is fulfilled by Islam,' he's saying Islam is incomplete."

Others say Ghounem is simply acting on the centuries-old impetus for people of all faiths to seek converts. Ibrahim Hooper of the Council for American Islamic Relations says Ghounem's objectives are in keeping with the principles of Islam, which encourages evangelism. "Muslims are encouraged to present accurate and balanced information about their faith to people of all religions," Hooper says.

Before he set out to convert Jews, Ghounem underwent a conversion of his own, from being an American college student who was mostly ignorant about his faith, to a self-fashioned Muslim scholar combating the pervasive myths about Islam he encountered on the Internet.

Ghounem, who immigrated to the United States from Egypt at age six, says his knowledge of Islam was tenuous when he graduated from Western Connecticut University with a degree in engineering. After returning to Cairo for a year to study at al-Azhar, Ghounem began spending hours a night in chat-room debates with Messianic Jews and Christians.

Unlike Jews for Jesus, Ghounem has no sponsors and no missionaries; he relies solely on the Internet for outreach. His Web site, which has had more than one million visitors since it was launched three years ago, has attracted about 200 "converts" who use it as a support group. It also provides a forum for Ghounem to address misconceptions about Islam, like the idea that Islam was spread by the sword, that the Quran is anti-Semitic, and that Jews and Muslims worship different gods.

Leaders of Jewish counter-missionary organizations claim they aren't overly concerned by Ghounem's efforts, saying the content of his Web site is so outrageous that most people don't pay attention. "This is a freak show, a side show," says Rabbi Tovia Singer, the head of Outreach Judaism, a group that works to bring converts back into the fold.

Moreover, they say Ghounem's background as an Egyptian-born Sunni Muslim probably doesn't help his quest for Jewish converts. "Ghounem wasn't a Jew in the first place. The Jews for Jesus founder was at least a convert who was Jewish," Hillman says.

Ghounem may not be Jewish, but the man who he has described as his alter ego, Yousef al Khattab, was born a Jew. The 35-year-old Brooklyn native, once known as Joseph Cohen, now lives in the Arab quarter of Jerusalem, where for the past three years he has operated the Web site JewstoIslam.com. Though the two men have never met, they monitor each other's progress and frequently chat online.

While Ghounem's site may invite ridicule, al Khattab's has been attacked with viruses, threats, and complaints. With links such as "My Heroes the Taliban" and "Freaky Jewish Stuff," which details such familiar anti-Semitic myths as rabbis sucking babies' blood, it is no wonder the site has been taken down several times.

As a former Jew preaching conversion amid the treacherous political and religious fault lines dividing Israel, al Khattab is a far more controversial figure than Ghounem. His transformation from being an ultra-Orthodox American Jew to a fundamentalist Muslim gives him license to preach a higher level of invective against Jews than his Gentile counterparts, says Singer, who says al Khattab threatened his life by posting his home address on the Internet and inviting Muslims to "visit him at his home."

"Jews who've converted to Islam are disenfranchised and self-hating," Singer says. "When you listen to them, you will hear virulent hatred toward Judaism. Their message is pregnant with hate."

But al Khattab, who denies ever having contact with Singer, says it is Judaism, rather than Jews, that he opposes, arguing that Jews have been misled by their rabbis. "Muslims are all inclusive and the whole message of Islam is to invite Jews, Nazis, capitalists, all religions and beliefs," al Khattab said in an e-mail.

Al Khattab, who has converted 11 Jews, said he was attracted by Islam's clear message of obedience to God. He seems unfazed by charges that he supports the goals of terrorists (he has called on Muslims to take up arms against Jews who don't convert), or by other Muslims' initial suspicions that he was a member of Mossad, the Israeli secret service.

"When we become Muslims we do this for the sake of Allah all mighty alone," he says. "We don't care if Muslims or non-Muslims approve of our goals."

Ghounem, who shares al Khattab's goal of turning Israel into an Islamic state, has chosen a different approach, however, taking careful stock of opinions about his Web site and often adjusting its content to appease critics. He took down a link about Sufism, the mystical strain of Islam, after some of his more orthodox fans complained Sufism is a fringe movement alien to Islam.

Ghounem said he recognizes converts risk alienation from both faiths, but hopes his Web site might lead to dialogue between Muslims and Jews. Well, that and one other thing. "My goal is to surpass Jews for Jesus, which I consider 100 percent inevitable," he said enthusiastically.

[MEGoody]

"A Muslim then, is a person who submits to God."

I'm pretty sure Jews and Christians have different ideas from Muslims as to what it means to submit to God.

[MEGoody]

"antisemetism is basically a western invention."

Then you need to have a loooooong talk with some Islamic leaders - start with Arafat.

[Alouette]

1. Jews for Jesus was started by Jews.

Well, actually not. It was started by Christians, Methodists to be precise, and during the 19th century was known by the cumbersome title of The American Society for Evangelizing the Jews. It was a Christian missionary society which was dedicated to converting Jews to Christianity, mainly by paying them money to convert.

The Society re-orged a number of times, trying various gimmicks. The "JFJ" was its reincarnation sometime in the 1970's. Morris "Moishe" Rosen is an ordained Baptist minister. He claims to have Jewish ancestry.

[Alouette]

antisemetism is basically a western invention. you can see how far it was developed in the west by hitler.

Hitler and the Arabs
How Can They Have Missed It?
By Jan Willem van der Hoeven,
Director International Christian Zionist Center
How Can They Have Missed It?

"Hitler, Goebbels, Goering and the rest of the Nazis, inadequate to a man, were both pathological and pragmatic liars. They lied so convincingly and so hugely that most statesmen from other countries could not believe that what they were hearing was a lie "One of Hitler's biggest lies was constantly to assure the world of peaceful intentions while obviously planning war by building up massively strong armed forces." [John Laffin, "Hitler warned us."]

When Saddam Hussein grew up, he did in the shadow of a giant portrait that hung on the wall of his father's house, a portrait of the face of a man his father adored above every other political leader. It was the face of Adolph Hitler!

Writing in Inside Asia, Joseph Gunther said: "The greatest contemporary hero (in the Arab) world is Hitler."?

Even Anwar Sadat, a man deemed by many in the West to be a moderate Arab leader, as a young man wrote the following words to the leader of the Third Reich, (whom he assumed was still alive and in hiding after the war):

My dear Hitler,
I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart. Even if you appear to have been defeated, in reality you are the victor. You succeeded in creating dissensions between Churchill, the old man, and his allies, the Sons of Satan. Germany will win because her existence is necessary to preserve the world balance. Germany will be reborn in spite of the Western and Eastern powers. There will be no peace unless Germany once again becomes what she was.¹

Anis Mansour, editor of the Egyptian paper October and a Sadat confidant who accompanied the Egyptian leader to Jerusalem wrote: "The World is now aware of the fact that Hitler was right, and that the cremation ovens were the appropriate means of punishing [the Jews]. Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, is still required reading in various Arab capitals and universities, and is widely distributed by others.

Samuel Katz writes in The Hollow Peace:

The Arab attitude is pointedly and incisively expressed in modern Arabic literature, which is chock-full of unbridled hatred of Israel, of Zionism and of the Jewish people. The idea of the destruction of Israel is expressed in hundreds of books published on the subject of the "dispute" itself, and anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist teaching has even been incorporated in school text-books, even, improbably enough, in arithmetic books. The only reason that the Arabs have not yet done to the Israeli Jews what Hitler did to their forefathers in Europe is that they have thus far lacked the military means and weapons of mass destruction which were at Hitler's disposal, to do so.

Had there not been an Israeli Defense Force to defend the remnant of European Jewry that immigrated to Israel, the Arabs would have gladly fulfilled Hitler's dream a long time ago by finishing off those of the Jews the Nazi megalomaniac had left alive.

That the Arabs have not done so to date has not been due to any reluctance on their part, but because, this time, there has been this difference: The Jews in Europe had no army to defend them. Thank G-d, the Jews in Israel have!

This deeply entrenched hatred of the Jews and love for Hitler and the Nazis surfaced during the time of one of the first Palestinian leaders, the Grand Mufti Haj Amin el Husseini, during the 1930's.

It is evident in what the Mufti said on Berlin radio while he was Hitler's guest in Germany. His words prove that there was total agreement between the Palestinian leader and this murderer of G-d's people:

Kill the Jews - kill them with your hands, kill them with your teeth - this is well pleasing to Allah!

No, the crux of the Middle East problem has never been as has generally been held the Palestinian Arab problem. It has been and still is the Palestinian Jewish problem. It was this problem that had to be solved by the Arabs, even as has been well documented in cooperation with the Nazis. They have used the Palestinian Arabs as their front and excuse to achieve their Hitler-like goal: The extinction of a sovereign Jewish nation in their Muslim midst!

Maybe it is because many Israelis have themselves swallowed the lie that they are unable to formulate a convincing line of defense. As Joan Peters writes so perceptively in her wonderful book From Time Immemorial:

Goebbels, Nazi exponent of Hitler's "Big Lie" averred that if a lie were repeated often enough and long enough, it would come to be perceived as truth. What he did not add was that the victim of the lie may also grow to believe it.

Many young Israeli "Palestinian" Jews react with anxiety, empathy, and concern about their alleged culpability, in response to widespread perceptions about the Israeli "occupation" of the West Bank, and the myth of the "three-or-four million Arab Palestinians excluded from their homeland inhabited by them since time immemorial" For so long the propaganda has reiterated that "Jews displaced Arab natives" in "Palestine" without even any factual framework for evaluating sick allegations, that many Jews feel they must bear that guilt.

When interviewed recently by a woman for a Dutch programme I was asked, after I had related the terrible violence and murders the Israeli people have to live with, whether it was not also true that the Israelis are sometimes guilty of using excessive force. My answer was, that though the Allied forces bombed whole cities in Germany as a response to Nazi violence and aggression, I had never heard this kind of criticism about them using excessive force by the Allies. Right or wrong people did not criticize the West or Allied armies for using too much force to free Europe from the scourge of Nazidom.

Why, then, does Israel subject herself again and again to this worldly wise criticism by nations who, when it came to the defense of their own best interest used far more force and destruction that Israel has ever allowed herself to use against those who, like Hitler, threaten her with extinction through gas and other weapons of mass destruction that will soon be in their hands!

Has Israel bombed and obliterated whole cities as the Allied forces did to Dresden, Darmstadt, Berlin and others? Or has Israel done as the U.S. did to bring Japan to her knees by - flattening Hiroshima and Nagasaki thus killing (as a Christian Western nation) 250,000 Japanese civilians! Has Israel ever done such a thing to rid herself of the enemies that wish and dream to one day do to them as the Nazis did? And yet it is Israel, who does not thus defend herself as the West has done, is blamed, scolded and censured by the governments of these very same Western nations!

It is truly amazing how hypocritical nations can be when it comes to Israel. There is a word for this double standard: Anti-Semitism.

For those in and outside Israel who would still scorn the accuracy of these related facts it may be good to end this article with a quote from Dr. Yahya al-Rakhaw, an Egyption in the issue of Al-Ahrar the organ of the Liberal Party! (July 19, 1982). He writes:

When the State of Israel was established and won the good-will of the world and was recognised by many in both East and West, one of the reasons for this recognition was the desire of the people in the East and West to get rid of as many as possible of the representatives of that human error known as "the Jews." Behind this motive there was an additional, secret purpose; to concentrate them in one place, so that it would be easier to strike them at the right moment. There can be no doubt that such hopes occupy the thoughts of politicians more intelligent than Hitler but at the same time more cowardly than he was.

And for us, we must remember, among both bombardments and negotiations, both speeches and landmines, that we are all - once again - face to face with the Jewish problem, not just the Zionist problem; and we must reassess all those studies which made a distinction between "the Jew" and "the Israeli" and we must redefine the meaning of the word "Jew" so that we do not imagine that we are speaking of a divinely revealed religion, or a minority persecuted by mankind. Every word has an origin, a development and a history, and it seems that the word "Jew" today has changed its content and meaning.

We thus find ourselves face to face with the essence of a problem which has recently donned the gown of religion and concentrated itself on a piece of land. In this confrontation we cannot help but see before us the figure of that great man Hitler, may Allah have mercy on him, who was the wisest of those who confronted this problem, and who, out of compassion for humanity, tried to exterminate every Jew, but despaired of curing this cancerous growth on the body of mankind. And now they virtually confirm the accuracy of his intuition.

May Israel be wiser in relation to this death wish of her neighbours, than the Jews in Europe were. They belittled the writings and speeches of Hitler and the Nazis and were massacred as a result. May it not happen again! 1. Sadat's letter, Al Musawwar, No. 1510, September 18,1953, cited in D.F. Green, ed., Arab Theologians on Jews and Israel (Geneva, 1976 ed.), p. 87. Quoted also by Gideon Hausner, November 16, 1971, at New York. Also see Harkabi, Arab Attitudes, pp. 276-277, for other examples.

By Jan Willem van der Hoeven,
Director International Christian Zionist Center

MEMRI: Special Dispatch - Egypt, April 27, 2001, No. 212

"Thanks to Hitler" Again! Al-Akhbar (Egypt), April 25, 2001.

In his short daily column in the Egyptian government daily Al-Akhbar, entitled "Half a Word," columnist Ahmad Ragab reiterates his thanks to Hitler. MEMRI first reported this sentiment in Special Dispatch No. 208, "Thanks to Hitler," April 20, 2001. Now, in a defiant manner, Al-Akhbar publishes:

"[Insistently] for the second time, thanks to Hitler, of blessed memory, who on behalf of the Palestinians, revenged in advance, against the most vile criminals on the face of the earth. Although we do have a complaint against him for his revenge on them was not enough."

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI)
P.O. Box 27837, Washington, DC 20038-7837

[Zionist Conspirator]

Once again, I do not expect to dissuade you, and you will not dissuade me into accepting once again former erroneous beliefs I now see the illogic of. I only reply to you because I realize you sincerely believe my position is groundless and I reject J*sus out of sheer spite (or at least this is the classic chr*stian position, though probably not held by Fundamentalist Protestants).

Let's quickly look at your assumptions of why I accept the TaNa"KH:

Because of the way Moses was confirmed before multiple nations with amazing miracles?
Because of the purity of the message relative to any other religion in the world?

Neither of those is the ground for believing the Torah. RaMBa"M taught that the reason G-d performed the miracles of Yetzi'at Mitzrayim (the exodus from Egypt) was to achieve certain ends (such as securing the Jews' release, their escape from Par`oh, etc.), but NOT to "prove" the Torah. That rests on an altogether different foundation.

The truth of the Torah lies in that it is the only religion in the history of the world that was not founded by a human being claiming to speak on behalf of G-d, but publicly, by G-d Himself. At the Revelation of Sinai the entire nation of Israel--men, women, children, the `Eirev Rav--saw the vision of Sinai and heard the very Voice of G-d Himself, unmediated by anyone. In fact, after hearing the first two of the Ten Words they cried out in fear and asked Moses to act as a go-between for them, which he then did. It is stressed over and over again in the Torah that this objective public experience witnessed by an entire Nation is the rationale for accepting the Torah. Furthermore, the Torah goes out on a limb and makes the claim that such a public national revelation will never happen again.

Every other religion in the world was founded by men claiming to act on behalf of G-d and then "proved" by the working of miracles. It doesn't matter if the person actually does work miracles! In fact, in Deuteronomy Chapter 13 G-d explicitly warns Israel that He Himself will cause the prophecies of false prophets to come to pass so that He may test them. Even prophecies that come true cannot supercede the Ultimate Revelation of Mt. Sinai.

Chr*stianity, like other supercessionist religions, claims that Divine Revelation is progressive, building up from the lowest (the Holy Torah), then higher and clearer through the Prophets and ultimately the "new testament" as the "highest" and "final" revelation. Judaism is the exact opposite. Divine Revelation is not progressive (in which case there would be no end of claimants to the title of "final revelation") but regressive. The Holy Torah, written by HaShem Himself in letters of black fire upon a scroll of white fire 974 generations before the Creation and then dictated to Mosheh letter by letter, is the very "logos" or Wisdom of G-d through which the world was created. The Nevi'im (Prophets) are not higher than the Torah but one step lower, having been written as prophetic visions. And the Ketuvim (the Writings or Hagiographa) are a step still lower, having been written merely under ruach haqodesh (Divine inspiration). There is nowhere in the Torah where a "higher" revelation is even hinted at, and only by exalting the Prophets and Writings above the Torah and then misinterpreting them can a "new testament" be found predicted in the TaNa"KH at all!

I once saw a bumper sticker on a car that read something like "Read the Qur'an: G-d's FINAL Revelation!" And I realized that while the "last revelation" can never be objectively identified, the FIRST one can. Therefore HaShem gave the ULTIMATE Revelation first rather than last.

As to your preaching to me about how J*sus died for our sins, do you actually believe I do not know all about that claim? I am a native and resident of the Bible Belt and that teaching is in the very air. I have heard it and studied it all my life. But consider this: what does that mean, "J*sus died for our sins?" Does that mean that Jews and Benei Noach are therefore prideful egotists trying to please G-d "on their own" while chr*stians are humble and therefore more pleasing in the eyes of G-d? How then do you explain (though I know how you will answer) the fact that for FIFTEEN HUNDRED YEARS until the coming of Martin Luther the chr*stians of the world worked just as hard to "earn" their salvation as anyone else? They replaced tefillin with rosary beads, Yom Kippur with chr*stmas, the `Avodah with the mass, but they worked just as hard--if not harder--than any Orthodox Jew to earn this "free salvation" of theirs (in fact, Eastern Orthodox chr*stians fast more often and more severely than any Orthodox Jew or Roman Catholic). What was the point? Which do you think makes more sense--"earning" salvation from HaShem by observing the preceptes commanded by Him in His Torah, or earning the "free salvation" which J*sus gave us when he nailed that horrible oppressive Torah to his cross? Hmmm???

Also consider the point that even radical antinomian Protestants who condemn liturgical chr*stianity for its "works" does exactly same thing, though they do not realize it. If G-d promises salvation in exchange for "accepting J*sus as your lord and savior" and you then do this then you have MERITED salvation by obeying G-d. The difference between this one simple act and the immense works system of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches is merely one of degree, not one of kind.

Consider also that the more ancient the form of chr*stianity one subscribes to, the more "works" is expected of one to earn this "free salvation." Catholicism is definitely older than Protestantism and they will tell you that J*sus was not damned vicariously in the place of all mankind but that he "merited" salvation by his death, and this merit is then obtained over a lifetime by good works, confessing one's sins, and participation in the rituals of the church. And Eastern Orthodoxy, which is even more ancient and more authentic than Catholicism, even rejects the idea of the death of J*sus as an atonement for sin in the first place. They claim the idea that J*sus' death was an atoning sacrifice for sin is a foreign legalistic development alien to chr*stian teaching which was added during the days of St. Augustine and elaborated upon later. And if you doubt this, simply go to http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ and read the teachings of the ancient religion from which yours developed.

I will make a couple more points and then close. First, as a friend has reminded me in an e-mail, the prophecies claimed by chr*stians as referring to J*sus (born of woman, descendant of Judah, descendant of David, etc.) apply as well to all Jews descended from King David. Chr*stians simply assume J*sus is the messiah and thus that these prophecies refer to him when they could be said equally to refer to millions who have lived over the years.

My final point deals with the very excuse for the invention of chr*stianity in the first place, the fall of Adam and Eve. I too used to believe that this sin made J*sus "sacrifice" necessary and the Torah's silence on the incident "proved" that it had to be pointing to something higher. But consider this: the account of Adam and Eve in your chr*stian Bible existed as part of the Holy Torah before there was ever a "new testament" in existence. However, this account has NEVER existed apart from the Holy Torah. The story of Adam and Eve and their sin in the Garden is part of the Torah. We have it today because G-d dictated it to Moses on Mt. Sinai, just as He dictated the rest of the Holy Torah, including all commandments you find so insufficient and insulting to G-d. The story of Adam and Eve is an integral, organic part of Torat Mosheh and chr*stianity's seizing on this episode as making a new religion necessary is not more legitimate than if islam or some other religion did the same.

Before closing allow me to leave you a couple of links. At my own website I have written an essay on the development of chr*stianity, located here. Perhaps you will find it interesting. I also recommend you go to 'Aish HaTorah's section on Shavu`ot to learn the true foundations of the acceptance of the Torah.

Be well.

[Salem]

  

[judicial meanz]

Islam is a political, legal, and religious system. It isnt just going to church on Sunday. There are gobs of Fatwas out there telling Muslims which direction to go in any given circumstance, and not all are so very peaceful and loving as you describe. 30 years of terrorism directed at our country and Israe can prove that point.

What about Khomeini preaching to Islamic schools for over 40 years the following formula for the conquest of the world, which is being followed today:

1) Iran must be theocratic ( muslim)
2) Iraq must be theocratic (muslim)
3) Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Egypt must become theocratic (muslim)
4) Jerusalem must be retaken and the Jewish people destroyed
5) Conquest of the nations

A religion that has swept over entire countries for centuries and conquered them by the sword, replaced their religious sites with Mosques, and kills indiscrimately when people refuse to convert is not peaceful, nor is it friendly.

The siren call of Muslim doublespeak is its lies. It all sounds just so lovely and inviting, but the bad parts dont get revealed to you until you are converted.

Ask any Christian convert or Jewish convert who was once Islamic, and they will tell you they were threatened with death and most had to flee when they were discovered, so this definitely torpedos the "Christians and Jews are our brothers" argument. I dont buy it.


Travel to an Islamic country and notice how many Muslims live under harsh and unbearable poverty, tyranny, and terrible Sharia law and mock "justice" while the ruling class lives in opulence and immunity from prosecution of law violations. See the women in prison forced into prostitution at the behest of corrupt officials. See the rich, fat sheikhs get away with whatever they want while they feign piety.

They can kee Islam. Ive seen its peaceful qualities, and its not for me.

[American in Israel]

Since you believe in the Qu'ran, that Jesus is a prophet and cannot lie, then when Jesus says that he is the way, the truth and the life and nobody comes to God but by him, he shows that the other prophets are wrong.

You cannot have it both ways.

As the whole foundation of the Bible is that blood sacrifice is the only that pays for sin, as sin has a blood price, and Jesus says his blood (which was sacrificed on the very day that sacrifice was required) pays for mankinds sin, then the only way to heaven is by His sacrifice, not by killing another sinful person.

Therefore the Bible, even before Christ shows that the Qu'ran is wrong.

Now if the Qu'ran uses the bible to justify itself, yet in itself is in direct contradiction to the Bible the Bible can stand alone, yet the Qu'ran has contradicted itself and therefore cannot stand, with or without the Bible.

You cannot have it both ways.

If the Bible says that the Jews are God's chosen people, and the New testament written about Jesus says that God will never leave or forsake his people the Jews, then the current Jihad shows that the Moslems are on the side of Satan.

Read Romans Chapter 11...

Sorry, just the slightest understanding of the Bible shows you are hip deep in aligators guy, better study more than what your masters are feeding you. Actually read the Bible, it is ok to do so, your masters have approved you doing so, they are just betting your soul you will not do your homework.

[American in Israel]

it's no fault of my religion that some people give bad sermons

However it is the fault of your religion that many many people in high places give sermons on slaughtering the Jews and Americans where ever you see them as they are infidels and the enemy of Islam, and nobody in your religious circles condems the false teachings! The silence is pretty thick, I see 10,000 dancing and partying on Sept 11 simple proof that the "moderate Islam" myth is as scarce as hens teeth. Where are all the protests and outcry against terrorism being mounted by Moslems?

-sounds of crickets chirping-

[DannyTN]

When I accepted the Lord Jesus as my savior, my fate was sealed. My ticket was punched. As Pauls said neither life nor death nor ....anything else can separate me from the love of Christ. I can not screw up bad enough, to cease to be saved. That's what Paul meant by "we have the spirit of adoption".

It doesn't matter if I do one work. Oh I might get a reward, but my salvation doesn't depend on it at all.

My acceptance of Jesus is not a work any more than a man who is freely given a winning lottery ticket earned the jackpot by "accepting" the ticket.

Christian salvation is grace plus nothing else. I work, I witness because I want others to know the Lord. Not because I have to. My motivation is love for God and love for others. While I believe there is an award system for works, I have no clue what that is. Most of the time with the Lord, the reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do more work.

There have been so-called Christians who thought they needed to earn salvation. It is a common deception Satan uses. But they didn't understand salvation. Salvation doesn't work like.

Moses told you that God would raise up a prophet like Moses and that Israel must listen to him. No other prophet was as much like Moses as Jesus. No other prophet survived being hunted as a child. No other prophet had the level of miracles confirming them. Jesus held the office of prophet, priest and king. To ignore this is to ignore the Torah. It's to ignore the very primary revelation that you hold supreme.

That's why Jesus said, "Don't think I will stand and accuse you. Moses is the one who will accuse you, for he told you about Me."

"G-d dictated it to Moses on Mt. Sinai, just as He dictated the rest of the Holy Torah, including all commandments you find so insufficient and insulting to G-d."

What are you talking about? I find no commandment in the Old testament insufficient or insulting to God. As Jesus said, do the commandments and you will have enternal life. Do the commandments and you will have no need of salvation. It's not the commandments that are insufficient. It's us! We don't do the commandments, no one does. That's why we need salvation.

[DannyTN]

"the prophecies claimed by chr*stians as referring to J*sus (born of woman, descendant of Judah, descendant of David, etc.) apply as well to all Jews descended from King David. Chr*stians simply assume J*sus is the messiah and thus that these prophecies refer to him when they could be said equally to refer to millions who have lived over the years. "

Really? All of the Jews descended from King David were to be named Mighty God and Everlasting Father? Isa 9:6. All of the Jews descended from King David were to "bare the sins of many"? Isa 53. I don't think so.

[DannyTN]

"Consider also that the more ancient the form of chr*stianity one subscribes to, the more "works" is expected of one to earn this "free salvation"

Paul was about as early as you can get. And Paul said, ""Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

And also "Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. "

But let's go earlier yet. What did Jesus say, "Whosoever believeth on me shall not perish but shall have eternal life." He didn't say he that believeth and does work.

The thief on the cross next to Jesus had no works. The only thing he did was to acknowledge that Jesus was Lord and asked in his own way for mercy, for Jesus to remember him. Jesus promised him Paradise. That's all it takes to be a Christian.

When you say Christianity is a faith based religion that is not based on law, remember that in the Torah, before the Law was ever given to Israel, that "Genesis 15:6 - And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

And I have a question? Why do you put the * in Christ or Jesus? I can understand that accepting Jewish beliefs it's a sign of respect for God. But to do that with Jesus, implies you accept Jesus as God. Which of course I don't think you do. It doesn't matter, I just found it curious.

[cookcounty]

1. Jews for Jesus was begun by Jews

"Well, actually not. It was started by Christians, Methodists to be precise, and during the 19th century was known by the cumbersome title of The American Society for Evangelizing the Jews. It was a Christian missionary society which was dedicated to converting Jews to Christianity, mainly by paying them money to convert."

"The Society re-orged a number of times, trying various gimmicks. The "JFJ" was its reincarnation sometime in the 1970's. Morris "Moishe" Rosen is an ordained Baptist minister. He claims to have Jewish ancestry."

You have your history a little garbled. JFJ was founded in the "hippie years" in San Francisco, By Moishe Rosen, who was working for an organization called the "American Board of Missions to the Jews."

Unhappy with their cautious ways, he started a more "aggressive" organization that emphasized public "street evangelism."

You can't pay a Jew to "convert." No amount of mere money could possibly be worth the hassles.

Plus, it is directly contrary to the fundamental stricture of Paul that "Salvation is by faith, not of works." It is a libel another variety.

[American in Israel]

Interesting that Moses is a prophet for you, did he lead the Jews as the Bible says or did he lead the Arabs?

If he was your prophet he would have lead the Arabs to the Promised land, but if he lead the Jews, then the Islamic Jihad to steal the land from the Jews is not of God.

This contradiction in deeds is also mirrored in the Koran, yet Islam claims the Koran is without contradiction:

"Do they not ponder on the Qur'an? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy." (Sura 4:82)

So let us ponder, for it is not from God by your own standards. Here in lies much discrepancy:

Creation took eight days, it says in Sura 41:9, 10, 12.

Sura 10:3, however, states creation took six days.

Or:

When the Qur'an speaks about the annunciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21.

Which is it? Because by the Qu’ran’s own standards, the Qu'ran has invalidated itself.

Lots more, but this is boring…


So now lets not just look for simple contradictions, but look for clear indications about the Author in his writings:

According to the Quran (Sura 20:90-100)a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire. In reality, Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after the time of the Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt.

OOPS! It seems Mohammad failed his history classes...

According to the Quran (Sura 9:30) the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God - the Messiah. This never has been a tenet of Judaism.

OOPS! It seems Mohammad failed his cultural classes...

According to the Quran (Sura 18:89-98) Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim and lived to a ripe old age.

Historical records however show that Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age (b. 356 B.C. - d. 323 B.C.), and believed he was divine, forcing others to recognize him as such. In India on the Hyphasis River (now Beas) Alexander erected twelve altars to twelve Olympian gods. Strange thing for a Moslem to do don't you think.

OOPS, seems that Mohammad did not get much traveling in either, nor did his God for surely God would have known about the altars...

Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate.

A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.

OOPS, seems Mohammad failed in Arithmetic also, must not have too good of schools out there in the sands?

According to the Quran (Sura 5:116, 5:73-75) the Christians believe in "three Gods" - Father, Mother, and Son. This shows the influence of heretical 'Christian' sects in central Arabia at the time of Muhammad. In contrast, Christianity has always distinctly stated that the Trinity is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Now isn't it interesting that Mohammad, who was recording what was spoken to him by God, wrote down what was the local rumors, not what was in reality.

According to the Quran (Sura 19:28, 3:33-36), Mary, the mother of Jesus, was the daughter of Imran or Amram, the father of Moses and Aaron. Mary is also said to be the sister of Moses and Aaron. Clearly Muhammad confused Mary with Miriam.

OOPS, low scores in reading comprehension too, or his God was confused also...

A second interesting point about Mary is the story of the date palm speaking and offering its fruit to her (Sura 19:23). This legend is easily traced to similar legends found in the apocryphal "Protoevangelium of James" the "Pseudo-Matthew" and "the Gospel of the Nativity of Mary" all of which have been dated to the fourth to sixth centuries, and were again believed by the sects found in Arabia.

Seems that Mohammad was quoting from his local environment, not from God, who surely had a much wider point of view than old Mo.

All of these point out strong indications that Mohammad wrote from his own experience not from divine inspiration, or his God was as backwater schooled as he was.

If Mohammad wrote from inspiration the big question is was it his own, or Gods?

If it was Gods, it is true that he will write from beyond his personal experience, but if it is from himself he will write the local belief structure instead of outside his own experience and that is just what is found.

I leave off on this now with one last thought you need to really contemplate because it shows who Allah might really be as there are conflicting views on who takes the souls at death: THE Angel of Death [32:11 but also "It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death." [39:42]

By the Qu’ran’s own word, Allah is not God, but the Angel of Death.

Now seeing how Islam is the worlds biggest death cult and its main fruit is not kind deeds to others but murder and mayhem, this is a part of the Qu’ran that is not a contradiction but a warning to those who might study the Qu’ran.

Something you have not done, and may cost you your soul.

[Alouette]

JFJ was founded in the "hippie years" in San Francisco, By Moishe Rosen, who was working for an organization called the "American Board of Missions to the Jews."

"American Board of Missions" is an avatar of "American Society for Evangelizing the Jews." They were also called the "Society for Ameliorating the Condition of the Jews." Their modus operandi during the 1800's was to gain "converts" by paying them to shill in the Jewish neighborhoods. You might say that true Christians should not use such tactics. I am inclined to agree.

Rev. Morris AKA "Moishe" Rosen gets a nice fat salary from his evangelical handlers to misrepresent himself as a "former rabbi" or "former rabbinical student" or "formerly religious Jew" when he was never a practicing Jew to begin with. In my opinion that makes him a paid shill.

[judicial meanz]

I personally dont see any reason for Christians to evangelize Jews, and I am a Christian. Would anyone dispute the fact that Moses or Abraham or any other biblical patriarch was not "born again"?

I believe observant Jews can be born again just as much as a Christian can, so why embarass myself and denigrate them?

I have found the average Jew has an above average understanding of the Word of God, and an excellent understanding of God.

I have seen people make the nastiest comments in the world trying to evangelize my wife, and because she refuses to convert to Christianity, they come after me and shame me for my refusal to evangelize her and claim her mortal soul will go to hell because of me. Is that correct or proper behavior? I dont personally think so.

I firmly believe that the Jewish people are Gods chosen people, and if it were not for them, us Christians would not be here. On top of that, I believe that a Christian can learn a LOT from any Jewish person if they lay conversion attempts behind them and engage in honest study and discourse.

I dont want to convert Jews. I honestly want to learn from them.



Ok....now let me don my asbestos suit and put on my ultra high sunblock. Fire away, folks.

[TrueBeliever9]

the view in islam is that jesue(peace be upon him) was a prophet of God, and like all prophets, he made up the best of humanity. so, we believe that prophets don't lie.

BUT JOE islamics all over the world believe and state and promote that they believe muhammed is allowing Jesus of Nazareth to return to earth to tell the world that he did lie - that he was not the Son of YHWY. That because Jesus was a good man muhammed is allowing him to come back and confess that he lied. DO YOU SEE A CONTRADITION IN YOUR STATEMENT? This is the false prophet imitating Jesus of Nazareth to lead many astray. JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD! That is what HE TOLD US AND I BELIEVE! Do you think that Jesus lied?

[DannyTN]

I read your website and have several critiques.

First you seem to assume that Catholicism at the peak of the dark ages was representative of all of Christianity for the first 1500 years. Read the Book of Martyrs sometime to learn that there were many Christians throughout the dark ages that were persecuted by Catholicism for studying the scriptures directly and for professing basic Christian beliefs. Read the early 1st and 2nd century works to learn that grace not works was very much emphasized in the early post-apostle church.

You seem to say that Christians developed there own rituals, calendar and liturgy because they couldn't read the Old Testament. Nothing could be further from the truth. Certain Jewish rituals were dropped almost immediately in the early Christian churches, for several reasons. The sacrifice made by Jesus voided the need for the animal sacrifice system. Sunday surplanted Saturday as the day of worship, not out of unfamiliarity with the Old Testament but out of respect and worship for the resurrection. Rituals that were part of the specific convenant between God and Israel were not carried forward when God directed that salvation was to be shared with the Gentiles also as they were not under the Jewish covenant.

The celebration of Christ's birth occurred at various times by different congregations until Roman law ordered no celebrations except at certain times. Under the mandate of law, the Christians intentionally decided to set the celebration of Christmas to compete with the pagan winter celebration out of faith that Christianity would win. And they were right. So it was not the incorporation of pagan rituals that some claim. Centuries later Easter was set accordingly not due to a mandate by law but following the example and success of Christmas. Again they were right and the Christian celebration won out, obliterating certain pagan religions. That there are some Christian groups out there that question these dates, is simply a result of the fact that they have forgotten their own Christian history and are now looking back 1800 years into the past and ASSUMING that Christianity became corrupt by incorporating these dates. When I believe the opposite is true. Christianity acted in faith and demolished the pagan religions.

Now the Catholics did have some evil leadership through the dark ages which even they admit and they did stray from Christianity with things like indulgences and persecution of true Christians.

You seem to say that Christianity views the Old Testament with it's rituals and the New Testament with it's grace as contradictory. It is not. Grace is found in the Old Testament as well. Likewise the Law is found in the New Testament. In the New Testament the Law is put into proper perspective. The Law teachs about sin, it does not save. Most of the Jewish rituals, such as the animal sacrifice system and the Passover teach about atonement and forgiveness. Thus the Old Testament effectively says the same thing, "here's the law, and when you screw up, then the Lord is your Salvation and your Redeemer and here's how to ask for forgiveness".

Thus the New Testament did not demolish the Jewish rituals, it fulfilled them, as they were only a foreshadow of what was to come. It didn't discredit the law, it upheld it. The Law didn't pass away, it is valid as ever. If we reject salvation, we are judged by the law and condemned accordingly. There is no discrediting of the Law or rituals in Christianity only fulfillment and grace.

Christianity does not claim the New Testament is holier than the Old. They are both Holy. And this is not an extremist Christian view. Christians do not claim that Jews are saved by keeping the Torah. If they truly kept it, they wouldn't need salvation, but God says none are righteous.

You say that there is a contradiction in the majority Christian view when we hold that the promises of the Old Testament are valid and yet Jesus must be accepted. There is no contradiction, because no Jew or non-Jew ever fully kept the covenant. That's why God signed the covenant for Abraham instead of letting Abraham sign. So that God would pay the price when Abraham's descendant's failed.

At least three times Jesus was asked what was necessary to gain eternal life. One person asked and Jesus said "What is written in the law" and the person replied, "Love God and love your neighbor". Jesus said, "Do this and you will have eternal life". But then the story gets interesting because the person asking seeking to justify himself asked "Who is my neighbor". That lead to the good samaritan story, but it also illustrated that the person had not kept the law.

The rich young ruler asked Jesus about eternal life and Jesus said "keep the commandments". The young ruler said all of these I have kept from my youth. Jesus said, "go and sell all that you have and follow me". And the young ruler went away sorrowful. Jesus had shown him that he loved riches more that God.

Nicodemus a member of the Sanhedrin asked Jesus about eternal life. This time Jesus said, "You must be born again". Nicodemus said something to the effect of "WHAT!?" And Jesus replied, "You are a teacher of the law and you don't understand this?". Jesus did explain it to him. But it does raise the point, Jesus thought this was clear in the Law and Nicodemus missed it.

Is it possible that the Naochides also are missing the key message about atonement that is in the Torah? Missing in essense a critical part of the Primary Revelation?

[DannyTN]

Let me ask this...

You embrace the 7 Noahic laws, I forgot the difference between them and the 10 commandments, but it doesn't really matter. I assume at a minimum they include "Love God" and "Love your neighbor". The two laws that Jesus said if you did, you would have eternal life.

Now I'm taking God at his word when he said, "None are righteous". That obviously includes the Noachides. For God to say that, you must not have kept the Noahic laws. Do you really love God with all your heart? Do you really love your neighbor as yourself? And do you do it consistently? My guess is NOT.

So now what does a Noachide do when he fails? You can't make it up. Because if you really loved, there is not anything good you can do, that you shouldn't have been doing anyway. So what do you do?

In the Torah, God said the punishment for sin would be death. That has been understood in both the Old Testament and New Testament as both physical and spiritual death.

You stand condemned by the Noahic laws you embrace to death. What are you going to do?

Myself, I think you need a substitutionary sacrifice. Jesus is willing to take the heat, as prophesized in the Old Testament. But you obviously have another solution. What is it?

[cookcounty]

"American Board of Missions" is an avatar of "American Society for Evangelizing the Jews." They were also called the "Society for Ameliorating the Condition of the Jews." Their modus operandi during the 1800's was to gain "converts" by paying them to shill in the Jewish neighborhoods. You might say that true Christians should not use such tactics. I am inclined to agree."

I certainly agree that anyone preaching the Gospel for the purpose of monetary gain is reprehensible, not to mention working against the proscription against this activity in the Book of Acts. I am skeptical of your sources regarding 19th century missionizing among the Jews, though, because it doesn't make any internal logical sense. These folks are so entirely rapped up in the concept of "relationship with God" that some cold cold mouthing of a creed would simply turn their stomachs. It's not something they would get involved in.

Probably you are speaking of "full-time missionaries," and assume these folks are motivated by the fact that they do receive (small) compensation to enable them to pay their bills. I know about missionaries, my church and family full of them, though none currently involved in outreach to Jews. They are utterly sincere in their beliefs.