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To: ChicagoHebrew
"as Judaism has ... no belief in an eternal hellfire to be "saved from." "

Apparently you speak for some but not all Jews on this matter. I found this on Jewish.com.

The Rabbinic tradition (those stories and ideas found in the Talmud and Midrashic works) are filled with different opinions about what will happen to people after death. Some rabbis believed that the souls of the righteous are rewarded and the souls of the wicked are punished. Some rabbis believed that the souls of the righteous will study Torah in the afterlife and be in God's presence. Some other rabbis believed that even the souls of the wicked are not perpetually punished, but that after some time, they too are allowed to enjoy the rewards of the righteous.

What's more, I found that that the Old Testament says a lot more about Hell than just those two verses.

It is mentoned in the Torah as a place of burning....Deuteronomy 32:22 - For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

As a place of sorrow....2 Samuel 22:6 - The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me; Psalms 18:5 - The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. Psalms 116:3 - The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

A place for the Wicked...Psalms 9:17 - The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. Psalms 55:15 - Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. Proverbs 7:27 - Her (prostitute) house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. Isaiah 28:15 - Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

A place of destruction....Job 26:6 - Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering. Proverbs 27:20 - Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

And then of course that previous post from Isaiah and Daniel calls it "everlasting burnings" and "everlasting contempt".

I just don't see how Jews can miss this and apparently according to Jewish.com, not all Jews do.

182 posted on 10/11/2003 1:58:35 PM PDT by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: DannyTN
I never said Judaism didn't believe in reward and punishment after death. I said, Judaism has "no belief in an eternal hellfire to be 'saved from'." Your post merely backs me up...

Some rabbis believed that the souls of the righteous are rewarded and the souls of the wicked are punished. Some rabbis believed that the souls of the righteous will study Torah in the afterlife and be in God's presence. Some other rabbis believed that even the souls of the wicked are not perpetually punished, but that after some time, they too are allowed to enjoy the rewards of the righteous.

This indeed is the standard Jewish belief... the wicked are punished after death, but not perpertually. Their is NO eternal hell. There is however "sheol/gehennim," which though often translated by Christians as "hell," functions more like the Catholic purgatory. The goal is not merely to punish the wicked, but to reform them. Thus, even in Gehennim, the souls of the wicked enjoy pleasure on Shabbat and Haggim-- to teach them the specialness of those days, and the mercy of G-d. Following their successful reformation, even the wicked are allowed into the World to Come. Incidentially, even the Righteous may go to Gehennim/Sheol for a brief period, to correct their spiritual imperfections-- thus, even Jacob tells his children that he soon will go to Sheol.

Be careful about quoting Daniel to a Jew... it just shows your utter ignorance of the text and Judaism. Judaism explicitly REJECTS that Daniel is a book of prophecy. That's why Daniel is included in the Ketuvim section of (Writings) the Bible-- along with the Song of Songs, Job, Ruth etc. Judaism rejects Daniel as prophecy because it acknolwedges that there are some clear corruptions in the text-- Daniel is written in Aramaic with traces of Greek- while a Jew of Daniel's time would speak Hebrew, Daniel incorrectly recounts Babylonian/Persian history etc. The Rabbis included it in the Tanakh only because the story itself has much merit, despite the corruptions.

Please cease with your arguments. They are tiresome and boring, as I haven't the time to reject them point by point.

184 posted on 10/12/2003 7:40:53 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew
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