The Scott Hahn Conversion Story

The coming Home Network ^ | 1991 | Scott Hahn

[Campion]

It APPEARS based upon a Catholic source and verified by non-Catholic sources, that Dr. Scott Hahn seems to be a “flake”.

If he's a "flake," he's a flake who's one of the senior members of the theology faculty at one of the few orthodox Catholic colleges left in the US. He's also a flake who's foudned an apostolate to encourage Catholics to study Scripture. He's also a flake who produces some of the best Bible study tapes around. He's also a flake who has a regular television show on EWTN ... I guess that makes them a bunch of flakes as well. He's also a flake whose work has done a lot for my own faith.

C'mon, Harley: Protestant apologists are going to trash Dr. Hahn because they consider him a traitor. Schismatic traditionalist Catholics are going to trash Dr. Hahn because he isn't one of them, and doesn't hew to the "Vatican II ruined the Church" line. I guess if he's disliked by both the "Catholicism is anti-Christ" crowd and by the "Vatican II is crypto-Protestantism" crowd, that makes him either a flake ... or a Catholic.

Come to think of it, I'd be honored if you'd conclude that I'm a flake, too.

[GirlShortstop]

Leave me alone. I don't care what your little judgemental mind thinks.

A factual reminder sure has you in a huff.  Maybe your weekend will be better.

[GirlShortstop]

Come to think of it, I'd be honored if you'd conclude that I'm a flake, too

You're honorable Campion!  :-)
FReegards.

[HarleyD]

To be honest I don't know the gentleman nor have I read any books by him. All I know is what is written in the posted testimony and the little that I have found on a few website.

He may not be a "flake" as I cautiously stated. However, there are a lot of people who followed Jimmy Swagger and Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker who thought they were OK as well. I never dismiss anyone's viewpoint out of hand for (most of the time) there is some truth.

Sandyeggo... Thanks for taking the time to read and clarifying for me. I must admit I also didn't read all 82 pages. I'm just not sure what it is he's talking about when he says the Trinity is a "family" and the Holy Spirit is love.

From what I did read I didn’t take the Bob Sungenis article to be so kind to Dr. Hahn. It starts out:

”Before we get to the dialogue section, I want to introduce the topic by saying that I have decided to post these dialogues due to some nagging concerns I have had for quite a while about the biblical theology of Scott Hahn, professor at Franciscan University at Steubenville. Since my embracing of the more Traditional side of our Catholic faith, I have felt a greater urgency to reveal what I see are anti-Traditional aspects and trends in Hahn’s teaching. Although I have great respect for Hahn and his enthusiasm for the Catholic Church, there are, nevertheless, certain elements of his teaching that are adversely affecting a very wide audience and disseminating what I believe is at best a one-sided understanding of Scripture and biblical theology, and at worst, one that is erroneous….

In the end, Hahn’s biblical theology produces a myriad of interpretations never before seen in Catholic biblical studies. Not that anything “new” is automatically bad, but the sad truth is that most of these new interpretations are not explicitly supported by the Bible. Most are the result of speculation and inference about the Bible, guided by the presuppositions stemming from the biblical theology. In many cases, the inferences conflict with explicitly known biblical information.

This doesn't sound like a simple spat and is consistent in what I found in his testimony.

[fidelis]

Augustine held a symbolic understanding of the Eucharist? I think not :

(Forgive the caps and emphasis in the text--that's how they were copied and pasted)

ST. AUGUSTINE (c. 354 - 430 A.D.)

"That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS." (Sermons 227)

"The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST'S BODY." (Sermons 234:2)

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST." (Sermons 272)

"...I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord's feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING." (Psalms 98:9)

[HarleyD]

Thanks for your help. I'm running out of time myself.

[HarleyD]

Thanks. I'll check into this.

[Salvation]

Welcome back. We are so glad to have you here!

[Salvation]

**Leave me alone. I don't care what your little judgemental mind thinks.**

Whatever happened to the doctrine: "Love your enemies."?

[ninenot]

Holy Spirit is a person but rather "love".

IIRC, that's straight out of Thomas Aquinas. Pinging.

[ninenot]

Recall that Aquinas 'baptized' Aristotle, and somewhere along the line, Ari/Aquinas declared that all perfections are in God.

Therefore, JPII's remark that the Trinity is a perfect family makes all the sense in the world. Another way to put it might be that the Trinity possesses all the perfections, which applies to its 'family-ness.'

There's nothing exceptionable here, although my phrasing (like Hahn's ) may be clumsy.

[HarleyD]

I would agree the Trinity is a perfect family if you mean that it possesses all perfection. But the Holy Spirit is far more than just "love".

According to scripture the Holy Spirit possesses all the same characteristics as God the Father and our Lord Jesus. He performed miracles (Matt 1:18), He has his own form (Matt 3:16), He leds us (Matt 4:1), He helps us to witness (Matt 10:20), He helps us to fight against Satan (Matt 12:38), speaking against the Spirit is cause for damnation (Matt 12:32), perfect praise which we offer comes from the Spirit (Matt 22:43), and we should be baptized into the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt 28:19).

And that's only what Matthew has to say about Him. I think it is an eggressous error to think that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than love between the Father and Son. And just like God the Father and God the Son, God the Holy Spirit also is a God of Wrath as Ananias and Sapphira found out (Acts 5).

The Holy Spirit is a member of the Trinity containing all attributes as God the Father and God the Son. I'm a firm believer that the Holy Spirit in our lives is seldom recognized, underappreciated and rarely utilized. Including my own.

[GirlShortstop]

But the Holy Spirit is far more than just "love".

Harley, the scriptural references are appreciated; thank you for taking time to compose.  I sort of agree with your initial comment....  

I believe that any human trying to find the absolute correct phrasing, and "box" to hold a tidy description of any part of the Trinity will fall short on words.  Thomas Aquinas didn't finish Summa after a revelation to him; I may be mistaken, but I surmised that what was revealed to him was beyond words, beyond his senses and he became aware of the reality that his efforts would've fallen short.  Additional information and/or correction here is most definitely welcome!  

The "family" reference put forth is personally very meaningful and encompasses so much goodness; it is beyond comprehension when the perfect-ness of God and the Trinity is considered and contemplated.  Do you agree, or appreciate what I mean to say?

A discussion on the Almighty Ever Living God will need an absolute infinite number of posts in order to *maybe* come close to capturing in words all that can be said.  It's not an unpleasant exercise by any means though.  :-)  Just my two cents.  Thanks again.

[IMRight]

“They read more Scripture, I thought, in a weekday Mass than we read in a Sunday service.”

There are many more of these “weird” assertions throughout this testimony.

"Weird" it may be to you. But it is also "true". I've attended services several times (sometimes dozens) each at Presbyterian, Methodist, Charismatic/Evangelical nondenominational, and almost every flavor of Baptist. There is no question that they do "read more Scripture" at a liturgical church (including Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopalian and Orthodox) than at any of the other churches.

Now, an attendee at you're average "Baptist" church will likely hear appreciably more preaching about Scripture, but not "more Scripture". Too often it's cherry-picked verses in three or four places to support a point.

[GirlShortstop]

They read more Scripture, I thought, in a weekday Mass than we read in a Sunday service.

There are many more of these "weird" assertions throughout this testimony.

     "Weird" it may be to you. But it is also "true". I've attended services....

Being ignorant of Protestant services (other than televised "events"), I appreciate your input IMRight, and am glad to see support for Scott's conversion story (which was very stirring, imho).

I'd guess that most, if not all of us can recall from personal experience a "weird" thing about religion.  Just the other day I rehashed what an eye-opener it was reading a number of books about Islam.   When I read some excerpts of their book, it was "weird"... in one case in particular it was so because the verse was pretty!  :-)

[Aquinasfan]

I looked up the Trinity in Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma." There isn't a lot of De fide teaching regarding the relationships between the Divine Persons.

1)In God there are two Internal Divine Processions.
2) The Divine Persons, not the Divine Nature, are the subject of the Internal Divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense).
3) The Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by Generation, and therefore is related to Him as Son to a Father.
4) The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a Single Principle through a Single Spiration.

These points follow logically from Scripture. Scripture tells us that Jesus is the Son of the Father. The essence of Fatherhood is generation. Therefore, the Son proceeds from the Father by way of generation, in a logical sense. Similarly, Scripture tells us that the Spirit was "sent" by the Father and Son, so in this logical sense we say that the Spirit proceeds by way of Spiration from the Father and Son.

The next section in Ott's book regards speculative explanations for the dogma of the Trinity. The main speculative explanation for the spiration of the Holy Spirit is that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the will or from the mutual love of the Father and the Son. Ott cites many Scriptural verses for this explanation.

Personally, I find this explanation compelling because it provides a great insight into the mystery of the family. The family somehow reflects the "image of God," just as the human person does.

(Ott's book is a must for every Catholic).

[Aquinasfan]

Scott Hahn has never made any full-fledged statements saying the Holy Spirit is a woman. Someone here on this thread is twisting Scott Hahn's words into something he has never altogether claimed.

Absolutely right. Scott's teaching is consonant with Traditional, speculative dogma regarding the relationships between the Persons of the Trinity. See my post above.

[Aquinasfan]

Which Bible should we be using?

And where in the Bible is this information provided?