The Protestant Reformation and Women

The Daily Catholic ^ | Marian Therese Horvat, Ph.D.

[RochesterFan]

I require 6 hours of premarital counseling including the Taylor-Johnson Temperament Analysis (I am a licensed instructor). I have often refused to do a marriage where biblical principles are violated or the couple doesn't evidence the maturity that marriage commitment requires.

May your tribe increase! Our chapel has similar requirements. Each of our elders is authorized to perform marriages. Typically one elder and his wife take responsibility for the counseling for a given couple; the entire group of elders reviews the details of each situation before a wedding is performed at our chapel. We consider this a part of the shepherding responsibility for the sheep entrusted to our care.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Luther held that women should be concerned with the kitchen, children, an Church (kuche, kinder, and kurche in German?). Hardly the Great Emancipator of women.

[drstevej]

What's German for "barefoot and pregnant?"

[Tuco Ramirez]

I don't think Anglicans di such a great job either; kill your wife if she doesn't produce an heir? I'm not judging anyone, but lets stick to the facts...

: )

[drstevej]

***I don't think Anglicans di such a great job either; kill your wife if she doesn't produce an heir?***

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

Henry was an Anglican ?????

You keep stickin' with those "facts"

[Tuco Ramirez]

What was he? Catholic? Lutheran? He founded the Anglican Church (and headed it).

[drstevej]

***What was he? Catholic? Lutheran? He founded the Anglican Church (and headed it).***

He most certainly did not found the Anglican Church. His daughter, Elizabeth did after Edward and Mary reigned.

Henry was Roman Catholic. Due to his marital "parade" he was severed from Rome but remained Catholic in doctrine. Upon his death Edward became king as a boy and was Reformed Protestant in theology. After his short reign, Mary returned England to Rome and vigorously persecuted Protestants (ergo - bloody Mary). After her Elizabeth became Queen.

Elizabeth, via the Elizabethan settlement, crreated the "church of the Middle Way" (Anglicanism) which was Protestant in theology but retained many Catholic liturgical elements. Her long reign solidified her settlement.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Henry persecuted Catholic clergy; he made himself the head of the "English Catholic Church?" (Anglican).

[AMDG&BVMH]

"Mechtildis"

Lots of pretty nick-names, too.

I noticed some posters began talking about literacy. Of course, the prime reason for the spread of literacy was the invention of the Printing Press.

Eleanor of Aquitane learned Latin, Greek, and the local French dialect. She also was a falconer.

Wider spread literacy does not negate the original point, that women were definately educated and placed in positions of responsibility in the Middle Ages. Education was limited because books and educated teachers were limited, until the Printing Press.

[Tax-chick]

I have a daughter named Eleanor! Women of Queen Eleanor's class were as likely to be educated as men, while almost all poor men and women were illiterate. Makes sense when only the terribly rich could afford a book. The Library of Congress had an exhibit of European manuscripts (pre - printing press) last time I was there. Such an incredible amount of work!

[AMDG&BVMH]

"Women of Queen Eleanor's class were as likely to be educated as men"

Another good one is Isabella of Spain. She had much trouble with potential suitors, til Ferdinand came of age. Due to the situation, she became the sovereign, not he. Tho they were devoted to each other. Not bad for an arranged marriage!

"I have a daughter named Eleanor! "

My daughter is enthralled with that era! She wants to do her room in a 12th century theme, and is doing an "Eleanor" chemise and billaut for her sewing project (4-H) this summer. Maybe she will name one of her daughters Eleanor!

She reads a series of biographies (fiction based upon fact, in the form of a "diary" -- I think it is Scholastic Press). They tie the girls' adventures and romances to actual history. So they are worthwhile. When I read them to her, I emphasize what is historical and what is "author's license." If your daughter is young enough (pre-teen, teen) she is bound to enjoy them!

[Tax-chick]

I've read some of those books ... "Royal Diaries," I think. My Josephine (13) is too old for them. Eleanor (6) has just started reading, so she'll be able to read them all in a few years. She plans to be a princess when she grows up ... I'll have to make her some gowns! I was 12th Century (reign of Henry I) when we did medieval reenactment years ago; easy sewing!

The literacy topic reminds me of a story about Paul Kruger, the president of Dutch South Africa. He could read (sorta) but his wife and children could not; not much to read out there in the veld, unless you were the President. When Kruger had to sign government documents, his wife would call (in Afrikaans), "Children, come here and be quiet ... Papa is going to sign his name!" and they would all gather around and watch.

[AMDG&BVMH]

"Royal Diaries,"

Yes, that is the series!

Yes, the 12th century is much better for reproduction sewing than the Civil War or Victorian eras! ;)

I got the patterns from "Patterns of Time" - I think that is the name.

Or course there is a lot of fabric to deal with!

[Tax-chick]

The Women/Cathedrals book - it might still be on my shelves, among the debris, or I might have already sent it to my fundamentalist friend in Alaska - traces a very interesting development. Christianity, while it pointed out different roles in life for men and women, treated them as equal in their humanity. The New Testament gives several illustrations of women acting "independently" as Christians, such as Lydia, Joanna, Mary Magdalene, etc.

It appears that over time, many European countries reverted from a Christian understanding of women to a pagan understanding, one which treated women as lifelong children, both morally and legally. This concept was found notably in pagan Greece and Rome.

I don't think blaming the Protestant Reformation is helpful (the author of this article clearly has an axe to grind) because the same development is found in Islam (look for Fatima Mernissi's books in your library ... she's a Moroccan Islamic feminist, of all things.) Islam, as promulgated by Mohammed, originally treated women as morally and socially very nearly equal to men.

However, even during Mohammed's lifetime, the culture of Arabia crushed that concept, and as Islam spread through the Middle East, additional layers of subjugation for women were added. Veiling and isolation ("purdah") for instance, came from Persian culture. Most of the anti-woman concepts in Islam do not come from the Koran, Mohammed's original "revelations," but from the Hadith, the commentaries developed by his followers in the next 150 or so years.

[aimhigh]

Marian Therese Horvat, Ph.D.

Interesting that a CATHOLIC woman is teaching here, contrary to 1 Timothy 2. Apparently she isn't willing to return to 13th century womanhood herself.

[AMDG&BVMH]

"vigorously persecuted Protestants "

and Elizabeth vigorously persecuted Catholics . . . just to complete your apt summary of the situation. ;)

Henry VIII, the earlier 'Defender of the Faith' did not believe he was doing anything but remaining Catholic, tho severing the Church in England from Rome and putting it under the crown -- he was wrong, of course, as you pointed out. Severed from Rome, the Church in England could only be what the crown and advisors to the crown demanded that it be.

Henry VIII also persecuted/supressed the monastaries and took possession so that he and his allies could benefit from the land and money. He also killed anyone who would not state that they accepted him as head of the church in England, re: St. John Fisher and St. Thomas More.

What an ugly bit of history thus came to pass, because Henry VIII could not satisfy himself with his first, long suffering wife. It is said he wanted a male heir; well, we know that gene comes from the father not the mother; so it was all, all in vain . . .

[AMDG&BVMH]

It appears that over time, many European countries reverted from a Christian understanding of women to a pagan understanding, one which treated women as lifelong children, both morally and legally. This concept was found notably in pagan Greece and Rome. I don't think blaming the Protestant Reformation is helpful (the author of this article clearly has an axe to grind)

The Catholic Church did not cause it either. Modern feminists like to blame the Roman Catholic Church for misogyny and 'holding women back', when the contrary is true.

I still have the impression that some of the Protestant sects were more into this interpretation of the role of women than the Catholic Church, whether it was from the Reformation or a more fundamentalist interpretation, or whatever . . .

The point is that the Protestant Reformation is when the split happened. With the authority to interpret the Scriptures as independent sects or individual persons, without the guiding tradition and and authotity of Rome, it would certainly be easier to fall into and perpetuate this "understanding" of women as chattel.

[drstevej]

***and Elizabeth vigorously persecuted Catholics . . ***

Yes she did.

***What an ugly bit of history thus came to pass, because Henry VIII could not satisfy himself with his first, long suffering wife.***

A Burma Shave advertisement from the past...

Henry the Eight
He sure had trouble
Short term wives
And long term stubble...
BURMA SHAVE

[AMDG&BVMH]

"Henry the Eight
He sure had trouble
Short term wives
And long term stubble...
BURMA SHAVE"

Cute! Thanks. :)

[Jason Neo]

Protestant revolution was not the origin of protestantism.The first protestant church was the apostolic church. The church depicted in New Testament Bible do not pray to “saints” or use statues\images in prayer,worship or have other lies like compulsory celibacy,purgatory,transubstantiation,Apostolic succession etc. Thus the original Apostolic God’s Church was Protestant/Evangelical in essence. Later in 4th century Constantine the then roman emperor gave Christianity a special status in his empire,inorder to consolidate the diminishing power of his goverment because of the fastly increasing christian minority that was spread throughout the Roman empire.Through the edict of milan, thessalonica and council of nicae what they did was not toleration for christianity,but to create a new fake religion in the name of Jesus,in which they integrated the ancient roman idolatry as the practice of intercession to saints. Many christians at that time and after 4th century AD, were against this.Some of them were early Jewish Christians,Donatists, Manichaens,Paulicians,Bogomils,Cathars,Waldensians,Hussites and finally Protestants. When Constantine gave Christianity a special status in his empire in-order to consolidate the diminishing power of his government because of the fastly increasing christian minority that was spreading throughout the Roman empire.But majority in his empire was still pagan and they found it hard to forgo of their old idolatrous practices. So the state changed the names of their old idols to “christian” names and continued to use them in prayer/worship . This came to be known as “intercession/veneration to saints” and is still practiced by catholic and orthodox ‘christians’.Other pagan to christian transmutations include changing of Solar mass of December 25th to Christ mass,changing of fertility goddess Ishtar festival to Easter. True Christians like early Jewish christians,Donatists(North Africa,Southern Europe),Manichaens(middle east,,central asia) who existed from1st-15th century AD,opposed this idolatrous practice of intercession/veneration of saints but catholics branded them heretics and massacred them.Later Paulicians & Bogomils who existed from6-12th century AD were against this idolatrous practice.Aftar that Cathars who existed from 11-13th century AD,Waldensians,Hussites & Protestants who existed from 11th century AD till this day, were against this idolatrous practice and other unscriptural lies of catholic/orthodox sects.Iconoclastic movement of (7th-8th century) century was against this practice, later protestant revolution (15-16th century) was waged mainly against this practice. Thus when Constantine gave Christianity special status in his empire,idolatry also entered along with it in the unsuspecting name of “intercession to saints”.This soon spread to most of the church,because such was the influence of roman empire at that time.But few like early Jewish Christians,Donatists(North African Christians) and followers of Mani ~ Manichean’s (Mani was a 2nd century apostle of Jesus whose followers spread from Persia to Balkans in the west and to China in the east,before falling into oblivion probably because of Islamic conquest) remained true to the gospel of Lord Jesus Christ,despite severe persecutions from Catholic/Orthodox sects. Later remenants of these Christians spread to Turkey and Balkans where they were called Paulicians and Bogomils respectively in 6th century AD.They were behind the Iconoclastic movement of 7-8th century(Protestant-Christian revolution of 16th century is considered by scholars to be the 2nd Iconoclastic movement).Both these groups came under heavy persecution from Catholics because they dared to expose the truth of Christ to them.Finally they were wiped out by catholic crusaders,en route to capture Jerusalem by a secret directive from Vatican in 12th century,perhaps the real intention of antichristians(catholics) for taking up crusades was to wipe out true christian like Paulcians and Bogomils who exposed their idolatry and lies. But almost simultaneously,the spirit of God started 2 new christian movements in heart of Catholicism itself~in Italy and France in 11th century AD . In italy they were called Waldensians and in France they were called Cathars .Cathars were wiped out in the 12th centutry by catholic crusaders~a mass murder popularly called as cathar/albunesian crusade (catholic church still take great “evil” pride in these crusades) .But Italian Waldensians continued to survive despite of severe catholic persecution and they remain to this day . By 15th century printing was invented and bible became available to masses . The ignorant masses came to know about truth that catholic church was doing idolatry in the name of god and following unscriptural lies. They revolted and it came to be known as protestant revolution and were led by many great leaders like Jan Hus,Jan Zizka,Martin Luther,Ulrich Zwingli,John Calvin,Petr Celcisky,John Knox,John Wesley and many others .Today protestants number more than 900 million . In future (after the soon coming WW3) they(protestants/evangelicals) will unite as single God’s church and all people living on earth will be it’s members.The 3rd temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and it shall be called “the house of prayer for people of all nations” exactly as Jesus predicted nearly 2000 years ago.Animal and other sacrifices will be offered there in the remembrance of the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross,just as it symbolized the coming sacrifice of Lord Jesus Christ in the old testament period.Thiswill remain till coming of Lord Jesus Christ in mid heavens to take his church from this earth ( rapture) . In rapture believers will be taken and hypocrites left behind to face great tribulation(such as never happened before or never will in the future) which will last for 7 years.In the half of this 7 year period antichrist will break his agreement with Israeli’s and set himself up in Jerusalem Temple as God,and stop the temple sacrifices and offerings.He will require all to have number 666 imprinted on them to buy or sell.Those who get this mark of 666 are damned for eternalhell.So anybody who happens to be in tribulation period,want salvation he/she has to die as martyrs,or be a part of 144,000 who will be fed in wilderness. I understand catholics will be angered by this, but their anger is in vain because this is the truth and truth will triumph.Also note that throughout the centuries catholics branded(and still branding) all these groups as dualistic pagans heretics who need to be wiped out from face of earth… such brandings(stereotypings) were less effective against prots,inorder to fulfill the prophecy of Jesus-”You are peter(petros-masculine noun in greek, meaning a small stone) and i shall build my church(non feminist Protestantism) on this rock(petra-feminine noun in Greek, meaning a large mass of rock,not the degrading dead body of peter buried under Vatican as catholics claim/believe)and gates of hell(Catholicism and other false religions/ideologies) will not prevail over it”. The Roman Catholic Church interprets Jesus here to say, “You are Peter, and upon you, Peter, I will build My church.” Peter would be the rock upon which the church is built. There are several problems with this interpretation. The first is that someone reading Matthew’s Gospel in Greek, the original language of the New Testament, would not have immediately concluded that Peter was the rock. In the Gospel of Matthew, when Jesus said to Simon, “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church” (Matthew 16:18), His choice of words was significant. Though Peter’s name means rock (petros), Jesus did not say, “You are Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (petros-which accurately means a small unstable stone) I will build my church,instead he said you are peter(petros) and i shall build my church on this petra(meaning bedrock,or a large rock mass). Peter’s name, Petros,is masculine in gender and refers to a boulder or a detached stone. Greek literature also uses it of a small stone that might be picked up and thrown. What Jesus said to Peter could be translated, “You are Stone, and upon this bedrock I will build My church.” His choice of words would indicate that the rock on which the church would be built was something other than Peter,which can only refer to the revelation given to Peter by the most high God,that is-Jesus is the Christ(messiah), the Son of the living God in the given scriptural context-Mathew16:16-18. Also apostolic succession claim by catholic/orthodox sects by which they claim that authority of keys given by Lord Jesus to Peter in Mathew16:19 is transferred only to a select few leaders who have dubious claim of lineage to Peter like catholic papacy.ButLord Jesus gave this “authority of keys” to all his believers/followers in Mathew18:18.Thus this Apostolic succession claim of catholic/orthodox sects is proved to be another lie by scriptures. These are the events that will happen in the future:- After the soon coming WW3/Gog Magog war(Ezekiel 38,39) all false religion in the world will become extinct and the all people living on earth will become members of the one true religion of God aka God’s/Christ’s church aka non feminist protestantism(those christians that reject catholic/orthodox idolatry of intercession/veneration of saints and other lies like apostolic succession and donot promote feminist lies like female pastors and sexual perversions like homosexuality/adultery etc) atleast for namesake. The 3rd temple will be built in Jerusalem and animal and other sacrifices will be offered their in tribute to eternal and ultimate sacrifice of Lord Jesus Christ on the cross for the sins of all mankind ,some 2000 years ago. People from all nations of the earth will come to offer their prayer and sacrifices in this temple and the temple shall be called “house of prayer for people of all nations” exactly as God spoke through prophet Isiah,which was repeated by Lord Jesus-Mark11:17,Mathew21:13,Isiah56:7. Then rapture will occur in which Lord Jesus will come in mid-heavens with trumpet sound of arch-angel and take all true christians(both living and dead) to heaven and leave behind all hypocrites-namesake christians on earth to face 7 year tribulation period aka wrath of God. Events that happen on earth before rapture(church age) are detailed in Mathew24:4-14,Mark13:5-13, The rapture event is detailed in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18,2Thessalonians2:7. After the rapture, for 7 years great tribulation/wrath of God on those who rejected him will occur all over earth.At the end of this 7 year period Jesus will come with 10,000′s of his saints and defeat satanic forces of beast and false prophet and send beast and false prophet to lake of fire and sulfur which burn eternally ,ressurect the 144,000 elect of Israel along with martyrs of great tribulation period who didn’t recieve the mark of the beast,which is 666--Revelations 20:4-6 (this ressurection along with the ressurection of the rapture and the resurrection of Jesus Christ along with some ressurected saints who appeared to people in Jerusalem after Jesus rose from the dead(Mathew27:52,53) is the ressurection of the just),set up his millennial kingdom and martyrs of church period,old testament period and the great tribulation period will rule with Lord Jesus Christ for the 1000 years(millenium)-Revelations 20:4 and chain Satan in the abyss for a period of 1000 years-Revelations 20:1-3 .These events are detailed in Revelations chapter 4 to chapter 20:6,Jude1:14-15. After this thousand years Satan will be set loose for a short while and he will bring many nations(Gog and magog) to attack God’s people.But fire will come down from heaven and destroy them,and Satan will be thrown into lake of fire and sulfur to which beast (antichrist) and false prophet was thrown and will burn eternally-Revelation20:7-10. Then God will sit in a white thrown and earth and heaven will flee away from his prescence and all who were not resurrected in the resurrection of the just, will be ressurected and will be judged according to their works and all those whose names are not written in the book of life will be sent to lake of fire and sulfur which burn eternally.Then New heavens,New Earth and New Jerusalem will come for all eternity which will be God dwelling with all whose names are written in the book of Life, forever.-Revelations20:11-22:21.