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To: BlackElk; marshmallow

Obedience in a religious institution is owed to a superior unless something has been commanded which would harm the Church or would do harm to souls, in which case such a command would be illegitimate. An example of the latter would be JPII's command to Archbishop Lefebvre not to consecrate--a command deliberately intended to destroy once and for all the ancient Mass. Bishop Fellay's command to this priest, on the other hand, was wholly legitimate and ought to have been obeyed. Your confusion is not uncommon among pope-worshipers and is due to the fantasy that because of their high office, popes may command whatever they wish. This is not true. Even popes are limited--from above, not from below. No pope may command what is contrary to Divine Law.


214 posted on 09/21/2004 11:21:47 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
Obedience in a religious institution is owed to a superior unless something has been commanded which would harm the Church or would do harm to souls, in which case such a command would be illegitimate.

Correct.

However, let's not be sloppy with language. We are not talking about a "religious institution", nor a superior of a religious order. We are talking about the Catholic Church, founded on the rock, Peter and his successors to whom certain promises were made by Our Lord.

Furthermore, it must be certain that such harm would definitely occur. Moreover, it is also necessary to consider the harm which would be done by the deliberate disobedience. The moral theology involved in issues such as this is something which should give pause to angels.

An example of the latter would be JPII's command to Archbishop Lefebvre not to consecrate--a command deliberately intended to destroy once and for all the ancient Mass.

The Pope, as Archbishop Lefebvres superior had every right to do so. Unauthorized episcopal consecration is a serious matter.

See, right, here you're on shaky ground. Key word: intended. You have presumed to know what the Pope's intentions were. It's always a dangerous exercise to judge intentions-still more so when that person is the Pope. The Pope "intended" to destroy the ancient Mass? I say, that what he intended was to prevent Lefebvre excommunicating himself "latae sententiae", to keep him within the Church and to make available to those who wished it, the Tridentine Rite. To preserve unity.

Bishop Fellay's command to this priest, on the other hand, was wholly legitimate and ought to have been obeyed.

Why? Who's to say that his command wasn't harmful to the Church or souls? You? The Pope? Bishop Fellay? As I've said previously and will continue to repeat, the decision as to what is and is not worthy of obedience is being made by you. Dress it up, spin it, slant it any way you want. But that's what it boils down to.

Your confusion is not uncommon among pope-worshipers and is due to the fantasy that because of their high office, popes may command whatever they wish. This is not true. Even popes are limited--from above, not from below. No pope may command what is contrary to Divine Law.

Again, let's not be sloppy with language. "Pope-worshippers"? No. Pope-respecters. It is not due to the "fantasy that because of their high office popes may command whatever they wish". It's not a "high office". On the contrary. The Pope is the servant of the servants of Christ.

My respect for the Holy Father is due firstly, to the fact that he is the successor of Peter and secondly, I believe most firmly that as the successor of Peter, he possesses a charism to guide the Barque of Peter which I do not possess. I humbly submit that God who chose him, has endowed him with gifts and blesings which are not proper to me or my state. In other words, I don't possess the competence to stand as his uber-Pope.

Before anyone goes down "the Pope's screwed up" road, humility and prudence ought to cause everybody to be extremely reluctant and err on the side of caution.

259 posted on 09/21/2004 1:18:37 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: ultima ratio; marshmallow; bornacatholic

See bornacatholic's #215 which, though aimed elsewhere, is the answer to your old schismatic argument. You believe you owe obedience when you or the now dead and excommunicated archscismatic of your group pleased or pleases. Catholics KNOW you owe obedience to the Pontiff. So did dead Marcel and so do all of his excommunicated bishops and all of his schismatic sycophants, whether they like it or not. The priests of the swchism are violating their vow of obedience and well do they know it.


278 posted on 09/21/2004 3:44:51 PM PDT by BlackElk ( Illicit consecrations of rebel bishops are grand theft ecclesiastical)
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