Posted on 04/01/2005 7:41:06 AM PST by Frumanchu
You have a very circular reasoning here. But it is clear you are Church of Christ and outside mainstream Protestantism's belief in salvation by faith alone.
The scripture is clear here, Jesus could as easily said he who does not believe and be baptized is damed... but he did not.
The fact is that there are many many scriptures on salvation by faith and only a couple that speak of baptism says it all.
The God I worship does not need the works of men to forgive any one.. He said "it is finished" Not "it is finished for those that act correctly and are baptized"
I believe God acts on men to make them acceptable , not that man makes himself acceptable to God by ritual obedience .
Our baptism is a response to an inward change by God and our obedience to the great commission come from God. It is all God
My reasonsing is not circular, it is very straight forward. If you do not believe, you will, by necessity, not obey the Lord's commands. Agreed? Therefore, the claim that someone who does not believe will be condemned in no way negates the need for repentance, confession, or baptism. Belief is the beginning point of salvation. However, it is not the only thing required by God.
Suppose I say to you that if you buy a bus ticket and get on the bus, you will be taken to Orlando, Florida. If you buy the ticket, would you claim that you will be taken to Orlando, Florida without getting on the bus? Of course not. Why? Because it isn't logical to assume such a thing. This is a direct parallel to the wording of Mark 16:16.
You said "The fact is that there are many many scriptures on salvation by faith and only a couple that speak of baptism says it all." First of all, there are quite a few passages that link baptism to salvation, not just a couple. My question to you is this: How many times does God need to mention something for it to matter to you?
I sincerely hope you will consider what the Bible teaches on this subject. God bless.
...but I can assure you that accepting the free gift of God is not a work, but mere thankfulness of the free mercy of God.
After years in this debate, I can at least understand your reluctance to differentiate the "receipt" of grace from the "acceptance" of grace. Your side generally sees the terms as synonymous.
I did, too, for a long time.
But the margin of difference grows for me every day. Either God determined the course of history and all that this entails from before the foundation of the world, or the world is a fluid, malleable phantasm of ever-changing chaos.
Either/or.
God's free mercy by the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ, one-third and equal part of the holy Trinity, was ordained by Him at the moment of creation, and is not now nor ever has been contingent upon any human action.
We respond to the gift of salvation by obedience and gratitude.
For a long time it seemed like a small point. Then I realized it was the fulcrum which balanced everything. No wonder the world works so hard to dispel it.
Salvation is of the Lord.
I understand Ephesians is brought up a lot in this. But I don't see how anyone can read Paul's words and not acknowledge all good works, even the "acceptance" of God's grace, is determined by God.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10.
"The nature of the Divine goodness is not only to open to those who knock. but also to cause them to knock and ask." -- AUGUSTINE
"Nothing in my hands I bring,
Simply to thy cross I cling;
Naked, come to thee for dress.
Helpless, look to thee for grace:
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me Savior, or I die.
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in thee."
AUGUSTUS TOPLADY -- "Rock of Ages"
Please show me book, chapter, and verse from the Bible that states were are justfied by grace "alone" or by faith "alone".
That verse does not teach faith "alone". If faith "alone" is true, then we have no need to repent of our sins. Do you believe we must repent of our sins? If faith "alone" is true, then we have no need to confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Do you believe we must confess Christ? If so, you don't believe in faith "alone".
What about the Book of James:
1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Oh, and P.S... if the verse does not teach 'faith "alone"', what does it teach?
I totally agree with the passage you just quoted. This goes directly with what I am saying, so I don't understand why you posted it to me. The only use of "faith alone" or "faith only" in the New Testament is in James 2:24, as you have quoted, and it states that we are justified by our works "and not by faith only".
You agree with me then. We must have faith first, then we must confess Christ and repent of our sins. My point is that "faith alone" negates anything in addition to faith, including confession and repentance. Do you agree? Where we probably disagree is that the Bible also says that we must be baptized for the remission of our sins. This follows faith, repentance, and confession.
Ephesians 2:8 does not teach "faith alone". It first teaches we are saved by grace, which is God's unmerited favor. This means we do not deserve His grace, and yet He offers it to us anyway. This verse also teaches that our salvation is "through faith". It is through our faith, which comes by hearing God's Word, that we are saved. The faith that is being described here is an obedient faith. Otherwise, repentance and confession would not be required, and you and I both agree that they are. Baptism is also required(Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21,etc).
"Hi, Mac. I like your name."
Thank you. Actually, MacTavish is my surname, my clan name. We are a very old Highland clan.
"Either God determined the course of history and all that this entails from before the foundation of the world, or the world is a fluid, malleable phantasm of ever-changing chaos."
Oh, I agree that God determined the course of history. That still doesn't mean that man is not a free moral agent.
"God's free mercy by the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ, one-third and equal part of the holy Trinity, was ordained by Him at the moment of creation, and is not now nor ever has been contingent upon any human action."
I agree as well. Christ's offering of himself for sin has never changed. That has nothing to do with Election; only to do with Atonement.
"We respond to the gift of salvation by obedience and gratitude."
This is my point. I don't add anything to the Atonement by responding to the gift of salvation by obedience to the gospel call and gratitude toward my Redeemer. Neither do I take away from the Atonement by rejecting it or not believing that it is freely offered. Man cannot do anything to the Atonement. Ergo, accepting the free gift of God cannot be considered a work.
Colin.
No, you do not understand the doctrine of "Sola Fide." It is a doctrine generally agreed by ALL true Protestants. Apart from the works based salvationists, who are essentially in practice Roman Catholic on the issue of justification by faith, all of Protestanism is still united on this issue.
I suggest that you get a good historical source and study the issue of "Sola Fide."
Colin.
Can one Baptized out side of your church be saved?
I understand what the Bible teaches about salvation. That is all that is important. The only source for doctrine that we have as Christians is the Bible, the Word of God.
First of all, I don't have a church. There is one church, that was founded on Pentecost(Acts 2). According to the Bible, if a person believes the Word of God, repents of their sins, confesses that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and is baptized for the remission of their sins, they are added to the church(Acts 2:47). After this, they are expected to "walk in the light"(1 John 1:7).
Can one baptized in other than a "Church of Christ" be saved or must they be re-baptized ?
We are saved by faith, and confession comes after. Confession is an expression of faith in a forgiving God.
If someone had done what the Bible says and has been baptized "for the remission of sins", then the Bible teaches that they are added to the church, and are saved. Notice it is also important to stay the course, and to continue to "walk in the light"(1 John 1:7). This means you must stay true to the Word of God and not follow doctrinal error.
That is not what is taught in the Bible.
Romans 10:10
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Confession is made "unto salvation". This means it must be made before salvation, not afterwards.
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." -- Romans 3:10-12.
Unless we are first regenerated by the indwelling spirit, we cannot choose righteousness.
"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." -- Romans 8:8-9.
It is all of Him and none of us.
How come it is that those who claim to be the proper interpreter of God's word almost always ignore the influence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Church for the previous 2000 years?
Doctrine as taught by the Church is a summary of what the Bible teaches, as are the Creeds and Confessions. To ignore them is to ignore what the Church has historically believed to be true teaching of the Bible. Your dismissing of even reading the doctrine of "Sola Fide" is to ignore what men much smarter than you have believed to be the correct interpretation of Scripture. It is also to ignore what the Holy Spirit has taught the Church in the last 2000 years.
I would suggest that, since you are unable to even tell us what the doctrine of "Sola Fide" is, you at least study so that you don't keep making claims about it that are wrong.
Colin.
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