Posted on 04/01/2005 7:41:06 AM PST by Frumanchu
I do rely completely on the Lord to save me. He has promised that if I do His will, I will be have a home in Heaven. I trust that. According to Hebrews 5:9, Christ is the "author of eternal salvation" to whom?
So what constitutes a legitimate baptism (i.e. a baptism worthy of salvation)?
Do we need to be immersed, sprinkled, doused? Is there a minimum requirement? Who must perform a baptism to ensure it's effectiveness - a pastor, a priest, an elder, any other Christian? What purity of water is legitimate - saltwater, fresh water, 51 % water and 49% other?
What must be said during the baptism? Does anything need to be spoken by the baptizer or the baptizee?
These seem to be very important questions since my salvation hinges on a proper administration of baptism...
You took 2 verses from a whole passage of Scripture out of context. Paul admitted he had baptized a few of them there, but was speaking against a problem where some where placing their allegiance to the one who had baptized them. He states that their thinking was wrong, and that they should place their allegiance in Christ. His primary duty was to preach the Gospel, but He never said that baptism was not a part of the Gospel.
I am not taking anything out of context..
Here is Pauls words
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Read verse 21 again ...Paul's words ..preach the gospel ...save those THAT BELIEVED ... not those that believed and were baptized.. If the baptism was necessary for salvation... He would have added those words AND He would have baptized . What kind of a man would take a man half way to salvation and then just leave him?
Your Church stands alone in professing Protestantism to claim man is not saved by faith but by faith + baptism (specifically in your church).
I have asked you 2 questions that I have not seen an answer to..
1) If a man repents and believes and dies before he is baptized in your church ( for repentance of sins) will he go to hell?
2) Does the holy Spirit indwell unsaved men ?
I am a Christian, saved by God's grace through my faith in Jesus Christ. Is is because of that faith that I have done what God has commanded me to do: repented of my sins, confessed Christ as the Son of God, and I have been baptized for the remission of sins. At the point I was baptized, I "put on Christ"(Galatians 3:27). I do not teach that salvation is earned in any way. I teach that the faith of the Bible is an obedient faith and I stand by that. I praise God for his willingness to call me His son.
You were 1/2 saved by your faith as I read your doctrinal position.. the other half was a pastor dunking you . If you had been hit by a car on the way to you baptism you would have been lost not saved..
Though you interpret my post as sarcastic, it was primarily intended as a legitimate question. I have been a Christian for 20 years and never immersed. Actually, my baptism was performed as an infant (4 months old) and I was only sprinkled with water. I have never had a "believers baptism", as John MacArthur would phrase it.
Do you believe my baptism was ineffectual? For the benefit of those scanning this thread, it seems important to distinguish between a baptism that saves and a useless ceremony (if that is what you believe it to be).
Given my history above, do you think I am saved?
According to the Bible, you have not done all that God has commanded you to do regarding salvation. Baptism never means sprinkling. There are specific Greek words for that, and they are not used. Baptism is immersion, is to be done after belief, repentance, and confession, and is for the remission of sins.
Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Was Jesus wrong?
1) If a man repents and believes and dies before he is baptized in your church ( for repentance of sins) will he go to hell?
2) Does the holy Spirit indwell unsaved men ?
Interesting propositions for jkl. I'd be interested in his answers as well. I don't think they'll be forthcoming though.
What exactly do you mean?
That does not negate the plain teaching that baptism is "for the remission of sins"(Acts 2:38)
If baptism is an absolute requirement for "remission of sins", then that un-baptized person who dies before baptism cannot be saved, or else your formula is off the mark.
My point was that God is just, and if a drunk driver hits your car while you are driving to be baptized, I believe He will take that into consideration. It is only in extreme circumstances where I believe God would make such a call. I am not saying 100% for sure they would be saved, just saying my guess is they probably would. However, an extreme circumstance such as that is not a valid argument against clear Biblical teaching.
You did not answer me.. do you believe the Holy Spirit indwells the unsaved man ? That was the question.
And
You were 1/2 saved by your faith as I read your doctrinal position.. the other half was a pastor dunking you . If you had been hit by a car on the way to you baptism you would have been lost not saved..
Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Was Jesus wrong?
Jesus did not say the lack of baptism damns, only the lack of belief
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
So then those that die in ignorance of your gospel , and have repented and believed are saved? Those that do not make it to the baptism might be saved.. so then baptism is not REALLY needed is it? There are exceptions.
Let me assure you there are NO exceptions to the requirement to repent and believe ..
2) The only time that an unsaved person(s) was given the power of the Holy Spirit was Cornelius and his family. The purpose of their reception of the Holy Spirit and their speaking in tongues was to show that God was going to be accepting of them receiving the Gospel. Peter, and others "of the circumcision", did not believe that the Gentiles could be saved. It was with this miraculous act that God finally convinced Peter that the Gentiles could receive the Gospel of Christ.
That is such a stretching and bending of the word of God to fit an unscripitual doctrine, I can not believe it. Where do you see that written anywhere? Scripture interprets scripture.. show me where that is taught anywhere.. Why would God have to indwell someone that is looking for him to PROVE He WOULD INDWELL THEM AFTER THEY ARE SAVED ?
Peter already KNEW God had accepted gentiles.. you need to read the entire book of acts , with special attention to Gods revelations to Peter
As I have said multiple times, the fact that a lack of belief damns a person does not negate what saves a person. God made us logical beings, so we should be able to look at this logically.
As an example, let's look at a sign you might see at the Department of Motor Vehicles:
"He who is 16 and passes a driver's test shall receive a driver's license.
He who is not 16 shall not receive a driver's license."
The phrasing here is identical to Mark 16:16. By the logic you are using to deal with the verse in question, all that is needed to get a driver's license is to be 16 years old. Do you agree with that? If not, why? It is because the sign clearly states that being 16 and passing a driver's test are both needed in order to obtain a license.
And the opposite of saved is ????
Did you want to argue for purgetory next?
Did you even read the example I gave after that? Do you believe that someone who is 16 can get a driver's license without taking the driver's test?
Christ's blood was either sufficient or insufficient. If the price that Christ paid atones for our sins, then it pays for ALL our sins - not just a few specific sins. If it is a sin to "bypass" baptism per your proscribed method, surely that sin is forgiven as well?
As I understand scripture, there is but one unforgivable sin - and that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Mark 3:
28 "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"--
The Greek phrase that is translated "for the remission of sins" is the same in both Matthew 26:28 and Acts 2:38. In Matthew, Christ is saying that his blood was shed "for the remission of sins". In Acts, Peter is telling the crowd they must repent and be baptized "for the remission of sins". If baptism is not "for the remission of sins" then Christ's blood is not either. I agree that Christ's blood is sufficient. Baptism is the point where our sins are washed away(Acts 22:16) by the blood of Christ. This only happens if proceeded by belief, repentance of sin, and confession of Christ.
"Let me assure you there are NO exceptions to the requirement to repent and believe .. "
If that is the case, then if a person is driving down the road and decides they truly believe in Christ, yet before they can repent of their sins, they are killed in a car accident, are they saved? Remember, you said there are no exceptions.
"Peter already KNEW God had accepted gentiles.. you need to read the entire book of acts , with special attention to Gods revelations to Peter"
I know what God revealed to Peter, but if you will study Acts closesly, you will see Peter still wasn't convinced that it was the right thing to do when he went to see Cornelius.
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