A Church That Packs Them In, 16,000 at a Time

NY Times ^ | July 18, 2005 | JOHN LELAND

[asformeandformyhouse]

If only food and marriage were to be considered, ... Paul wouldn't have used that phrasing.

You're adding to the text here ... it doesn't say what you are trying to claim that that it says.

Sorry. It's the only conclusion that can be reached from 1 Tim 4.

1 Timothy 4:1  Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2  Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3  Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4  For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

It doesn't say 'everything' (although you want it to), it says every creature. It is discussing food here.

[Quester]

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

It doesn't say 'everything' (although you want it to), it says every creature. It is discussing food here.

Actually, ... it depends on what translation you are using ...

New International Version

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

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English Standard Version

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,

3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

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Bible in Basic English

1 Timothy 4:1 But the Spirit says clearly that in later times some will be turned away from the faith, giving their minds to spirits of deceit, and the teachings of evil spirits,

2 Through the false ways of men whose words are untrue, whose hearts are burned as with a heated iron;

3 Who keep men from being married and from taking food which God made to be taken with praise by those who have faith and true knowledge.

4 Because everything which God has made is good, and nothing is evil, if it is taken with praise:

5 For it is made holy by the word of God and by prayer.

And BTW, ... we know that Paul is talking about more than just food, ... because he also speaks of marriage.

[asformeandformyhouse]

we know that Paul is talking about more than just food, ... because he also speaks of marriage.

Yeah, so he must also mean instruments of music. I see the logic now.

[Gamecock]

Rule #1: God's Word does not return void.

Rule number two: The path is narrow.

I have never seen Osteen preach God's word, rather he gives a feel good message then throws in a fragment of a verse to back his misapplication.

[Quester]

... we know that Paul is talking about more than just food, ... because he also speaks of marriage.

Yeah, so he must also mean instruments of music. I see the logic now.

No ... the context shows (because he includes marriage in the discussion) ... that he is not just referring to food in 1 Timothy 4:4.

Of course, ... that Paul says elsewhere that ... Everything is lawful (i.e. not rejected) ... , (1 Corinthians 10:23) ... pretty much puts the cap on things.

[asformeandformyhouse]

If 'everything' means 'everything' then there is no reason to discuss doctrine ever, since 'everything' is allowed. I just don't feel that God is indifferent to how we worship. I'm guess we can look forward to hamburgers and cokes for the elements of the Lord's Supper. They were not prohibited, you know.

[asformeandformyhouse]

Just re-read my last post. That last response might have seemed a little snappy. That was not my intention. I just think the 'silence allows' argument allows for all manner of incorrect doctrine to be introduced. I guess I agree with God, that man can't be trusted to get it right on their own.

Jeremiah 10:23  O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

[lifelongsoldier]

As I have now donned my nomex suit, let me just make a little comment here.

I grew up in the CofC. As with most denominations (I know, the CofC is not a denomination) there are certain tenets of belief promoted to all seekers. In the Cof C the biggest false tenet of belief is: "We speak where the Bible speaks, we are silent where the Bible is silent." In the tradition I grew up in, there could never be a musical instrument inside the Church. The confusion between a building and the church is evident in that statement. I cannot "go to church", because I am part of the church. I can meet with the church, the church can assemble, but we can't "go to church." I now meet with a group who has acapella singing during the Remembrance when the focus is to be upon Jesus and His Supper. Then for the pre-lunch gathering, called the Family Bible Hour, there is at least a piano; often much more. Which is correct, the former hour or the latter? Yes. Biblical Jews ignore most of the Rabbinical writings, and we Biblical Christians should do the same. Read the words, worship according to the words, and leave the commentaries to those who cannot think. They will all be devout "cookie-cutter" Christians and will keep haranguing you to conform to their mental image of what is right. Smile, mumble politely, and go on your way. What should we call ourselves, Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Baptists, or what. I am a catholic, methodist, presbyterian, episcopalian, baptist Christian. The church is universal (catholic) and I am a part of it. We use a method of worship which allows us to do all things decently and in order (methodist). We have elders (presbyters) who are over-seers (episkopoi) who govern the local followers of the way. We believe in and practice baptism (immersion) of believers. But above all, we choose to be known as Christians.

I found in all of the capitalized churches above some point on which they did not agree with the plain sense of the message Paul called "foolishness to the Greeks, and a stumbling block to the Jews." Since I can find no place where the Bible says something, but really means something else (you might, but I don't) I had to part ways with all of them. I firmly believe that John, the Revelator, was the last prophet sent to us, thus any theology based on some writing subsequent to his is, IMNTBHO, bunk.

[after looking to see if I have my asbestos union-suit on] I will now step down off my soap box.

[asformeandformyhouse]

Actually, ... it depends on what translation you are using ...

Why KJV of course. You mean you actually use another? /sarcasm

[asformeandformyhouse]

Man, what's up with me today? That last message should have included a smiley face - :) - rather than a sarcasm tag. I guess I got too many things going on at the same time today. I'm taking off for today, hopefully I'll be better able to continue tomorrow. Provided I can even type by then.

Thanks.

[Quester]

If 'everything' means 'everything' then there is no reason to discuss doctrine ever, since 'everything' is allowed. I just don't feel that God is indifferent to how we worship.

I wouldn't say that we're discussing an issue of christian doctrine (i.e. the various elements of the gospel of Jesus Christ).

If we were ... Paul's admonition against believing any other gospel (than the one the Apostles had brought) ... would be in play.

What we are really discussing is what God requires in the worship setting.

That Paul instructs that "All things are lawful ..." indicates to me that God is not rigid as to some aspects of how we worship.

After concluding that "All things are lawful, ..." we could choose to proceed to a discussion of what things are edifying and/or expedient in worship ... and why or why not.

In a lot of ways, this discussion reminds me of a Sunday School lesson we recently had ... from John 4.

Here Jesus discusses, ... with the woman at the well, ... as to the nature of the worship which God desires ...

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This, I believe, ... is the basis upon which we should build such a discussion.

[Elsie]

The passages you mentioned say nothing concerning instruments.

It's better than arguing from silence.

[Elsie]

NIV Revelation 18:21-22
21. Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.
22. The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. No workman of any trade will ever be found in you again. The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again.





(Maybe an non-instrumental church is related to Babylon...)

Why no response to THIS conjecture?

[asformeandformyhouse]

It's better than arguing from silence.

See post #367. The fact is admitted, the argument from silence is yours.

[asformeandformyhouse]

Why no response to THIS conjecture?

Because none is warrented.

[Elsie]

#367

... and you have admitted no scripture specifying their exclusion.

The New Testament is silent on the issue.

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on EXCLUSION as well as INCLUSION.

 

 

 

So why is everyone so adamant that THEIR postion is right?

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Romans 14

 

 1.  Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
 2.  One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
 3.  The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.
 4.  Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
 5.  One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
 6.  He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
 7.  For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone.
 8.  If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 
 9.  For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
 10.  You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
 11.  It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"
 12.  So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 
 13.  Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
 14.  As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food  is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.

[asformeandformyhouse]

I wouldn't say that we're discussing an issue of christian doctrine (i.e. the various elements of the gospel of Jesus Christ).

If we were ... Paul's admonition against believing any other gospel (than the one the Apostles had brought) ... would be in play.

What we are really discussing is what God requires in the worship setting.

I would agree that is what we are discussing. I would not agree that it is not also doctrine. Therein lies the difference. I wouldn't separate doctrine from worship as I also believe what Jesus said in John 4 is appropriate. If we worship in spirit and in truth, the truth portion of that statement implies necessary doctrine (e.g. mountains vs. Jerusalem). The only way to know truth is through the revealed word. Therefore, using only the revealed word, instruments of music are not found in the NT church.

[jkl1122]

Very well said.

[asformeandformyhouse]

So why is everyone so adamant that THEIR postion is right?

Because I think we ALL see others who love the Lord and are truly seeking to give praise and honor to Him. If we see that type of person doing what we feel to be contrary to the word of God, it is our repsonsibility to reason with their interpretation. As long as that is done out of love and respect for the Word of God and not out of our own stubbornness and pride at having the 'right' position, I think we can all benefit. Not every discussion will result in a change, but each clarification of opinion serves to increase our ability to reason from the scriptures in the future.

Sometimes the debate gets a little heated. But if it didn't on occassion, I'd be a little worried about the passion that each have for the truth.

[Quester]

If we worship in spirit and in truth, the truth portion of that statement implies necessary doctrine (e.g. mountains vs. Jerusalem).

Note that Jesus conveyed the understanding that, in the final analysis, that earthly issue (i.e. that mountain vs. Jerusalem) ... didn't really matter ...

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.