Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
I know. I only meant in comparison to His power and greatness. Also, thanks for the link in #107. I will take a look at it.
"If this was so there was no reason for the death of His Son, no need for the fire and brimstone of Sodom, and certainly no need for flooding the earth. This is not the God of scripture."
Well, I've answered your first point many times, even on this thread, HD. Come on!
Points two and three may mean two things. First, the destruction of Sodom and the Flood, like the devastation of the tsunami a year ago, was likely the result of the burden of sin distorting creation. Sin, HD, has screwed up everything, not simply people. Why doesn't the lion lie down with the lamb, HD? Sin. Yet we know from the writings of the Desert Fathers the many stories of this precise thing happening under the influence of holy monastics who have come to theosis, or near theosis in this life. The story of the lion and the donkey from the life of St. Gerasimos springs to mind. At any rate, these events you refer to also have a didactic aspect through which God shows us the destructive nature of sin.
You don't honestly think that God destroyed nearly everyone in the world because He was mad at people, do you; that God was the author of that destruction?
"Please explain how monasticism can be said to be vibrant when it spiritually benefited only the few while keeping the people in ignorance and superstition."
Well, monasticism is the crown jewel of The Church. It may very well be that the monastics of the Church today as well as in the past, in their unending prayer, are exactly what keeps sin from totally destroying the world, but that's another discussion. In any event, it wasn't the monks who kept the people ignorant and superstitious, at least in the East. And out there, as I said, things were different than in the West. For starters more people could read...and did. It may well be that The Church in the West kept people ignorant. That simply isn't true for the East. try not to be so Western Christianity arose in the East and spread to the West. You think about it with the mind of the "Enlightenment", but that isn't where it came from at all.
I can't speak for Kolo, but he is right -- God is indifferent to sin. What we do can neither please nor displease Him. If we could, He would be subject to pleasure, and passion.
God is simply offering us to be restored to our original state -- because He loves us.
And by the way, the Old Testament, with floods and the stuff, also says that God repents (Gen 6:6)...that God changes His minds! Imagine that! That God, the Almighty Sovereign Creator of everything and all, the all-knowing and all-seeing Spirit Who is everywhere and Who transcends everything and all, makes a mistake, regrets, and changes His mind!
It's not that it didn't happen. It's that we don't interpret it correctly. Even Jesus redefined the OT "eye for an eye," (Mat 5:38-39) showing that the people whom God chose to reveal His truth not onyl left Him on many occasions, but also maybe interpreted His revelation somewhat oddly, and corrupted the pristine Covenant He made with them (Heb 8:7).
"I only meant in comparison to His power and greatness."
Its probably not good to even think in terms which allow for any comparison between ourselves and The Father. There's siimply no basis for that comparison. We can try to compare ourselves to, or better said, to emulate, Christ. Various Orthodox theologians have speculated that at the Final Judgment we will be judged not on our good deeds or bad or how much we have sinned and repented, but rather on how much like Christ we have become. But that has nothing to do with "salvation by works" by the way. Anyway, that's one reason why you should read "On the Incarnation". :)
I agree. I meant it as an absurdity for purposes of illustration.
"It may very well be that the monastics of the Church today as well as in the past, in their unending prayer, are exactly what keeps sin from totally destroying the world,"
Second Thessalonians says it is the Holy Spirit who is the restrainer of evil and He will be removed from the earth just before the Lord comes again. It is the effectuial fervant prayer of righteous man that availeth much. That's your and my responsibility, not just the professionals. We both need support to prevail in prayer.
"It is the effectuial fervant prayer of righteous man that availeth much. That's your and my responsibility, not just the professionals. We both need support to prevail in prayer."
I agree 100% But you and I live "in the world" and just as you and I have not lived the training life of Olympic marathoners so that we can jog, neither have we lead the prayer life of holy monastics in the "spiritual meadow" of monasticism.
Granted, but they haven't lived in the trenches of the arena of the world and had to pray their way through like you and me. God gives to each what is necessary to conform us to the image of His Son who had to fight like we do in this world and then told us to live like He did trusting and praying through.
I think you misread - he is not attacking the Bride of Christ - he is attacking the RC Church which came about hundreds of years later.
More likely as a troubled franchisee.
"Granted, but they haven't lived in the trenches of the arena of the world and had to pray their way through like you and me."
Actually, in the East, especially in Russia and Greece, most monastics profess later in life. For eample, of the 14 or so nuns in the monastry outside my family's village in Greece, 12 were professional women living in the world before they entered the monastery. In any event, monastics struggle with demons the like of which you and I hopefully will never have to deal with.
" More likely as a troubled franchisee."
LOL!
Sometimes, that's a prerequisite for clearing out the clutter in our detractors' brains :D
"In any event, monastics struggle with demons the like of which you and I hopefully will never have to deal with."
You haven't met some of my clients!
Remind me again which camp teaches that God is sovereign even over man's will, and which camp teaches that God will not - perhaps even cannot, override mankind's "free will" when it comes to man overcoming the bondage to sin and choosing salvation for himself.
Amazing. We must be reading different Bibles altogether.
You're asking a Presbyterian about Lutheran doctrine.
It's my understanding Luther was not as certain of Eternal Security as the later Reformers, likening Christian assurance to the promise of health by a good physician to his sick patient.
Luther waged a righteous and powerful disengagement from all the corruption and confusion that surrounded him, so he can be forgiven for not getting everything exactly correct. 8~)
"God is indifferent to sin. What we do can neither please nor displease Him. If we could, He would be subject to pleasure, and passion."
He paid a severe price for His indifference.
It must be awful to see all of the different shapes, shades of color, seasons or your creation turning to you and feel nothing or be moved by nothing. How can anyone believe God does not have a streak of practical joker in Him when you look in the mirror or a keen sense of humor watching a Grandmother listening to her grandchild sing off key and loving it?
And yet, God still loves us? Kosta50 posted in #105:
God is simply helping us become restored to our original state, the way we were created. Those who turn to God stand a chance. Those who don't -- well, they will never be restored. He is doing that not because He needs us, or because he is "lonely" (God is one but He is not alone), or because we "earned it," but simply because He loves us. Sin does not affect Him, you can be sure of that.
If sin does not matter to God, what kind of love can He possibly have for us?
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