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To: kosta50; ItsOurTimeNow; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
You are saying that the uncreated God is subject to His own Creation -- by necessity!

Remind me again which camp teaches that God is sovereign even over man's will, and which camp teaches that God will not - perhaps even cannot, override mankind's "free will" when it comes to man overcoming the bondage to sin and choosing salvation for himself.

136 posted on 01/02/2006 7:43:14 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Proverbs 12:10)
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To: Alex Murphy
Remind me again which camp teaches that God is sovereign even over man's will, and which camp teaches that God will not - perhaps even cannot, override mankind's "free will" when it comes to man overcoming the bondage to sin and choosing salvation for himself.

Does this have anything to do with the Pope being "infallible in matters of theology," Alex? ;-)

I'm not sure why you think there are only two "camps", but I as a Catholic am not in the came that says that God "cannot override mankind's 'free will' when it comes to man overcoming the bondage to sin and choosing salvation for himself". I don't think man can choose salvation for himself; that's semi-Pelagianism.

I do think God sovereignly chooses to give all (or perhaps only almost all) men the freedom to freely choose damnation for themselves. Why does he choose to do that? Because he doesn't wish to coerce our love, because coerced love isn't love. God wishes to save all men, but that desire isn't absolute or unconditional. He can want to save all men, but only as free moral agents. You have to allow him the sovereign freedom to do that.

Ironically, the Catholic God seems more sovereign to me than the Calvinist one, because the Catholic God is free to make creatures who can choose on their own to say "no".

146 posted on 01/02/2006 8:58:21 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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