Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[stripes1776]

I want to see where does human will come into play and if not what's the point. I don't care for biblical references. I want to know why I have intellect. Do I have a will or not.

This thread has motivated me to start reading again in the history of the Protestant Reformation. The first Protestant translation of the Bible to include the innovation of verse numbers occurred in Geneva, Switzerland--Calvin's city--by the printer Robert Etienne in 1551. While this made it much easier to find a single text, it was less easy to follow a continuous story or, for example, a sustained Pauline argument.

Whatever the convenience of verse numbers may have provided, it also made the Scriptures seem something like a chemical compound that can be analyzed into its constituent elements or atoms. It also makes it easy to recombine those elements to form "new molecules." I think this helps to explain why some Protestants have a tendency to reduce any argument to Book, Chapter, and Verse.

This is not a technique that most Protestants use. Most also want to know why they have an intellect and will.

[jo kus]

You make the decision but God has given you a new heart. That new heart is to follow God. You become a "slave to righteousness" wanting to do the things that are of God. If God gives you the desire to follow Him you will follow Him.

Isn't that cooperating with the new heart that God has placed within us? It should be apparent that even with a new heart, I CAN sin. Thus, I must cooperate with that new heart and follow Christ, correct? I agree with what you write above - and I see it as cooperating with God's graces.

You can't know other people's heart although you can make some good guesses. All you can know is your own. We rest on the promises of God. He has said it. He will do it.

It should be evident that WE even change, in our own minds. Our knowledge of ourselves also changes. Thus, our knowledge is not the determinant of whether we are of the Elect. God doesn't communicate that information to anyone. We have FAITH and HOPE that we are of the elect, Harley. God will "do" what He will "do" to those whom He will. You are claiming the title of "Elect" based on what knowledge within you? Please forgive me if I sound skeptical, but anyone can convince themselves of this.

Paul is presuming they are filled with the Holy Spirit and have been chosen of God. And so should we.

Exactly. PRESUMING.

People fall away but they were never saved to begin with.

Well, that is interesting. Without going into the details of what "saved" means, doesn't this admit that one might NOT be of the elect, despite their wishing it so? My point is that I might act like a follower of Christ today, but in five years, I might witness something or undergo something that makes me fall away from the Church. You say I never was saved, I say I fell away. In either case, the 'ME' of today cannot know I am of the Elect, can I? This is my argument 2000 posts ago and remains so.

If a Protestant admits that "someone was never saved to begin with", what way will you assure yourself TODAY that YOU are saved? You CANNOT! Those same people who "were never saved" are the same people who swear they love Jesus and will never fall away and love God, etc... In the end, the Protestant's self-assured salvation is not absolutely secure.

Regards

[kosta50]

I think this helps to explain why some Protestants have a tendency to reduce any argument to Book, Chapter, and Verse.

This is not a technique that most Protestants use. Most also want to know why they have an intellect and will

That is an awesome insight, stripes1776. You are a breath of fresh air. I feel a lot better knowing that most Protestants are actually closer to us than I was led to believe. Thank you. Thank you.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "You would say that such a defiant sin changes a person from saved to unsaved. I would say such a sin means the person was never saved in the first place."

If that were true, brother, than we can NEVER know that the sinner's prayer is effective! ... If a person cannot know he was saved in the first place, then how do you know you are saved at all?

Why not? I do not claim to be able to tell the future. AND, I do know what my faith is, and I do know what God's promises are. If God's promises are not God's promises, then I believed in a false faith from the beginning and I'm toast either way. So, if you ask me if I have 100% assurance this minute, I will say 'Yes'. If you asked me to predict what I would say to the same question if you asked me one minute from now, I would give you the same answer. That's how I choose to live my life and not worry about it. If the truth is that I'm wrong, then I'm all done. I have no problem betting on that. It's a very secure existence! :)

FK: "It was years before I could say with confidence that I was 100% saved.

YOU determine whether you are saved or not? That doesn't strike me as a Biblical idea. It defies the idea of perseverance to the end!

No, I was only speaking from my POV. If you had asked me right after I was saved, then, I don't know, I might have said I was 90% sure. Now I say 100%. Both are irrelevant to the single truth of whether or not I am of the elect from the beginning of time. With my sanctification now, at least I can say that I am either 100% right or 100% wrong. I'm an optimist :)

I don't think it belies persevering to the end at all. I am either of the elect or I am not. I am either regenerated or not, I either have a new nature or I do not. If I do, then God promises that I will persevere. If I do not persevere, then I do not have a new heart. If I sign on the dotted line and then go do whatever I want, then I'm doomed. Whether I am fooling myself or not, I am living my life in confidence.

Thus, Paul calls it spiritual warfare, not spiritual mopping up. Warfare presumes that one can lose the war.

Yes, we certainly do experience the war, and we certainly do struggle. Such is how God designed us. I think our struggles are mostly designed to make us more dependent upon Him, and thus increase our sanctification.

If Paul thought that he could be disqualified, despite being "saved", that doesn't bode well for some Protestants who have said the sinner's prayer and rest on their laurels.

I think Paul is indeed including Protestants like this in this passage. I would agree that these folks are in deep soup, the bubbling kind. :) I know of no church that teaches that this is OK, or encourages it. My church teaches the exact opposite, and actively.

If you are not concerned with your salvation, you are not of the same mind as Paul, ...

I think that all of your many examples could be interpreted to support either of our positions. If I falsely believe that I am saved and discover that I'm wrong, then it could be said that I "lost" my self-perceived salvation even though I never had it to begin with. We could go on forever. Paul was teaching and helping to sanctify the new believers. He wanted them to KNOW that they couldn't rest on their laurels after being saved. These verses make perfect sense.

I don't think it is necessary to have God "pretend" anything with us.

Even after everything I've said, I don't perceive any pretending on my end at all. For me, everything is new. That's one reason not to take anything for granted. :)

It's OK, I have lots of hair! We don't know what's going to happen so we don't know how our sanctification is going to take shape, but we do know that it will happen.

When you say, "we don't know what is going to happen", what are you referring to? The process of sanctification, or the idea that we are saved? And "we do know that it will happen", again, the sanctification process, or being saved?

LOL! You've got me beat then. :) I am sorry for being unclear. "We don't know what's going to happen" means nothing more than we can't read the future and I do not know the specific events of the future. It refers to neither sanctification nor salvation. Therefore, we do not know the shape our sanctification will take. (Six months ago I couldn't have predicted in a million years that I would now believe in Perseverance of the Saints.) In "but we do know that it will happen", the "it" is sanctification. The elect are assuredly sanctified during their lives after salvation. Sorry again :)

Previously, you said we cannot know we are of the elect - since the sinner's prayer may not have "worked". So if "x" work of love occurs, it doesn't mean you are of the elect, does it? I think it only tells of our CURRENT status.

Well, I can't know if anyone else's sinner's prayer "worked", but I can know about my own. Am I willing to bet my eternal soul on it. Absolutely. That's what I call "knowing". :) Any one "x" work of love means nothing. Jesus gave us a profile of what an elect looks like. Does a person look like that? If I said we can't know about ourselves, it must have been in some mathematical sense of certitude. I know with all the certainty a human can have.

It's funny, what even gives me more confidence is comparing myself before and after when I believed in OSAS. Since I have dumped it, I haven't changed a thing in my life. That has to mean something. :)

If the sinner's prayer didn't take, you were never saved. This might occur after years of specific and daily loving actions done under the influence of the Spirit. But then the falling away occurs - and the reason - because you never were saved to begin with! And now you KNOW you are of the Elect...How??!! Those loving deeds by the "saved" person told him NOTHING of his future falling away!

I think we are splitting those hairs on the barbershop floor! :) If we are talking about the literal TRUTH of the salvation, that is never changing and pre-ordained from the beginning of time. If we are talking about our perception of that truth (assurance) then that is KNOWABLE by the person. Usually, the greater the sanctification, the greater the assurance, until it eventually reaches 100%. (Sometimes even that happens immediately).

Just as you have said for yourself, we don't do loving actions for points. We do them because of a changed heart. That's what a changed heart does, etc. A person cannot fall away permanently after years of loving works under the Spirit because if he had the Spirit, He wouldn't allow it. So, those "good" works were not really good in God's eyes because the Spirit was never there.

Either you are saved irrevocably during the Sinner's Prayer, (making all talk about perseverance and sanctification worthless) or you don't really know, based on your future response to God. (making one's knowledge of the elect suspicious or uncertain at best).

Promise to put a luge helmet on first? OK? Neither is true! :) The term "saved irrevocably" is fully dependent on the POV. From our POV we can blow it. From God's, we're on the list or not. The flip side is that we CAN know, but not all do. Sanctification helps us get to full assurance. Part of this is the knowledge that God WON'T LET us blow it because of His promises.

So, I know that now, and I have "full assurance". Could I chose to fall away permanently? NO WAY!!! I can't (in truth). That ability to fall away is still in me, but God promises to cup His hand around the edge of the cliff before I plunge. Given my assurance, am I tempted to go off and live how I want to since I'm in? NO WAY!!! I also know that we do not test God, besides I still want to serve and obey God. It's no pat on my back, it's what every regenerated heart does naturally.

God Bless.

[kosta50]

Now, now. Remember this is based on the traditions of the fathers

Only in your illusion.

[jo kus]

Well, all of this "grilling" has finally brought out some light for me. I will skip right to it, and you tell me if you agree.

The term "saved irrevocably" is fully dependent on the POV. From our POV we can blow it. From God's, we're on the list or not. The flip side is that we CAN know, but not all do. Sanctification helps us get to full assurance. Part of this is the knowledge that God WON'T LET us blow it because of His promises.

Well, if you only would have said this in the first place! Whew. From our point of view, we can blow it. Correct. From God's point of view, the elect cannot blow it. The Sanctification process gives us increasing assuredness AND transforms us into the original image and likeness that God had intended for us (although not complete until heaven). This line of thought is much more in line with Catholic/Orthodox view on salvation, according to the Fathers of the Church. We can "know" we are saved by our present faith, how we conduct ourselves - faith working through love. And IF we are of the Elect, which we grow in confidence of yearly, we will realize that God will NOT allow us to blow it.

The point of this cross-examination was to get you to realize this key part of our faith - that from our POV, we must continue in humility, always working out our salvation in fear and trembling. It is NEVER a done deal until the day of our particular judgment. Thus, our sanctification is REAL. We ARE changing, being transformed. What God's Word says, He puts into action.

Could I chose to fall away permanently? NO WAY!!!

I sincerely doubt that people just wake up one day and say "I don't feel like believing in Christ anymore". I think it is a gradual process, often punctuated by a tragic event in where the person loses faith in the Lord altogether. Perhaps a person has not been taking his sanctification seriously, then his beloved wife and daughter are killed.

Some people would persevere under these circumstances, but others would blame God and not return. It is the way it is. We can judge "the person was never saved". I would say the person was never of the elect - but he didn't realize that. But the point I am making is that who knows what God has planned for us or whether we are going to be with God in heaven. That is the whole point of a judgment, correct? We are judged based on how we responsed to Christ.

I personally have realized, the more I come closer to Christ, the more I realize those little minor sins, the things I blew off previously as no big deal, are more serious in keeping Jesus and myself from a closer union. This also seems to be the experience of the official saints of the Church. As they grow closer to God, they realize how unworthy they are and how humble they must become to be more like Christ. For us to have life, we must have the Son. (1 John 5:12). What better way to have Christ abide in us than the Eucharist? It is a promise of everlasting life! "whoever eats my flesh...has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day". St. Ignatius (107 AD) called it the "medicine of immortality, the antidote against death", food that makes us "live together in Jesus Christ".

It's no pat on my back, it's what every regenerated heart does naturally.

Think about this. You are DAILY given literally dozens of choices, those little things that you don't even think about, choices For or Against the Will of God. We aren't talking about deciding to kill someone or not. But to become holy, you must also follow the little way. You must look to how you act in all things. We DO have the choice to restrain ourselves when someone makes a comment - whether it is a little dig at us, or a temptation to gossip, or an impure joke, or whatever. We DO have the choice to make Godly decisions in each of these situations - and they happen all of the time. Note...EVERY REGENERATED HEART does NOT follow that path. Some believe that "if I don't kill anyone, cheat on my wife, etc." I will be fine. But love is much more than that. Sure, God will guide us, but we must actively seek to "whether in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord". This is NOT automatic! It is a long process that must be attended to, with God's grace.

Brother in Christ

[kosta50]

If you really would like to know our "dogma" I would suggest the Westminster Confession or the London Baptist Confession

I read your "dogma" and that of the the Anabaptists (who were brutally exterminated by Lutherans in continental Europe) and they are not even close.

Your Calvinist cult lists no less than 39 Old testament books! In addition to that, it states that God made man only in His image (but not in His likeness as well) -- thereby altering Scripture to fit its own agenda.

Furthermore, the Westminster Confession says that man had a choice, but that God was pleased with Adam's sin, "according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory."

Yet, although God wanted it so, and made sure it was so "for His own lory" the "guilt of this sin was imputed" onto man. So, God's will was realized and man was to blame: "Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto, does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner."

The more I think about it, your "dogma" and Islam have a lot more in common than I ever believed.

As for our (ana)Baptist friends (the folks who believed in two baptisms), theirs was nothing like yours, but ordinary Bible babble, litteralist in its presentation.

The bottom line is that both are creatures of man, and not of the Church established by God, because that Church never taught anything like that confession of your cult, nor believed anything similar to it from the beginning.

[HarleyD]

Isn't that cooperating with the new heart that God has placed within us?

Your interpretation and my interpretation of "cooperating" are different. You feel that a person is free to cooperate or not cooperate in their salvation. I feel that God changes the heart so we will cooperate with God during salvation. After we are saved there are periods of time when we will rebel simply because of our fleshy nature. But God understands and will bring us back to a point of cooperating with Him.

You are claiming the title of "Elect" based on what knowledge within you? Please forgive me if I sound skeptical, but anyone can convince themselves of this.

I am claiming the title of "elect" based upon what God has said in His word. I have always put great store in the word of God and I noticed that the Catholic Church has as well believing it to be written by the "finger of God" if you will. Therefore if God states that He will put His spirit in us and cause us to walk in His statues, I believe it. If He states, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.", I believe it. If He says we are chosen of God and that man's steps are ordained by Him, I believe it. The Bible is the ONLY thing that can be believed.

If a Protestant admits that "someone was never saved to begin with", what way will you assure yourself TODAY that YOU are saved? You CANNOT

Nonsense, there are plenty of Christians in scripture who KNEW they were Christians. In fact THEY CALLED THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS. You can ONLY know your own heart and Paul states to "Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith".

People fall away all the time these days. They go to some sort of rally, get a big Christian high, and then end up going back to the lives they were leading. How many came to World Day (or whatever it was called) and slipped back? To you it looks like they "lost" their salvation. I would say they never had it to begin with.

I can only examine myself and I cannot judge the salvation of others. However, I can be assured of my salvation simply by resting on God's word. If God took the time and bother to saved me when I was a most wretched creature, He surely won't let me go now after He has spent 30+ years on me. I don't rest on things that I'm doing. My faith is placed upon Christ to see me through. Personally, I don't think He'll let me down.

In the end, the Protestant's self-assured salvation is not absolutely secure.

In the end you say God saves a person today not knowing if He will be saved tomorrow. Wouldn't it be just as well to jump in front of a bus after you've been baptized?

[Kolokotronis]

"In any case, only God knows who the elect are - we don't.

"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation..." 2 Thess 2:13"

Harley, if your interpretation of this passage from +Paul is correct, what's this mean from Timothy?

"This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4

All men, Harley, not just the "elect". Is God exercising divine self dillusion? Or do these two passages point out the bankruptcy of the Calvinist position and support The Church's understanding of God's foreknowledge but not predestination?

[Kolokotronis]

"To be honest, I really don't know what the theology is on whether Adam and Eve eventually wound up in heaven or not, but I would like to know. My "guess" would be that they are both in heaven because God showed mercy on them by kicking them out of the garden, lest they should again partake of the fruit of the tree. God saved them from themselves. What does your side say?"

Your honesty, FK is appreciated! Indeed, it is the theology of The Church that Adam and Eve are in heaven, having been released from hades by Christ Himself as is shown in the icon of the Resurrection:

Your comment raise several intersting points. Initially, we have the whole question of the purpose of the Incarnation. Why did God become Man and dwell among us? Why did he have to die? Why did He have to descend to hades, the abode of the dead, break the bonds of the Evil One and free the souls of the righteous dead? Why did He rise on Great and Holy Pascha? Was it part of some divine farce, a show put on to entertain God? That's what predestination and a denial of free will would seem to require one to believe. If we have nothing at all to do with our own damnation or salvation, or if all we have to do since the greatest event in the history of the world is say the "sinner's prayer" and we're "in", then the conclusion is inescapable that God is a great impressario putting on shows for His own entertainment and reall nothing more. But The Church doesn't teach that at all. +John says:

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

The whole world, FK, not just the "elect", assuming even for a moment that the sins of the "elect" need atonement which seems, well, a bit of a contradiction.

You say that God showed His mercy by kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden "lest they should partake of the fruit of the tree". This is indeed correct, but do you know why? Here's what +John Chrysostomos says:

"Partaking of the tree, the man and woman became liable to death and subject to the future needs of the body. Adam was no longer permitted to remain in the Garden, and was bidden to leave, a move by which God showed His love for him. He had become mortal, and lest he presume to eat further from the tree which promised an endless life of continuous sinning, he was expelled from the Garden as a mark of divine solicitude, not of necessity." Hom. in Gen XVIII, 3.

But they still died, didn't they? The tree didn't have death in it; it only had good in it.

The tree of knowledge itself was good, and its fruit was good. For it was not the tree that had death in it, as some think, but the disobedience which had death in it; for there was nothing else in the fruit but knowledge alone; but knowledge is good when one uses it properly." Theophilus of Antioch To Autolycus

"The tree did not engender death, for God did not create death; but death was the consequence of disobedience." St. John Damascene Homily on Holy Saturday

[Kolokotronis]

"What your real gripe is, is simply that God doesn’t do this for everyone. This is incomprehensible to your Greek thought process. Instead you would rather rationalize that God offers everyone, everything and only a few accept His offer. Sorry. This isn’t the God of scripture. He makes choices and does what He pleases. And everything is perfectly right, holy and just regardless of what we think."

Harley, 2 Peter 3 says:

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

More cosmic game playing, Harley, or does +Peter know something Calvinists don't? Maybe Peter was just a Greek and without the inspiration of God or the influence of clearly superior 16th century Western European understanding of God? Poor +Peter, if only he'd been born in Geneva he might not have fallen into such error!

[Kolokotronis]

"God promises that He will keep His own, so such a person would not have been kept, making their salvation impossible. The point is the permanency, not whether a person makes an occasional mistake."

Sounds like once saved always saved, FK. What about this? These fellows (Hymenaeus and Alexander) apparently had the faith, or so +Paul would have us believe, but then rejected it:

"Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith." 1 Timothy 1:18-19

The issue of apostasy comes up many times in the NT, especially in the Epistles.

[Kolokotronis]

"From your perspective doesn't God look down that "corridor of time" and see who those people are who will fall away? Why would they be saved in the first place if God knows tomorrow they will fall away?"

God doesn't look down a corridor of time. What is time to God? This is an anthropomorphism, just like "pre" destination. It can only have meaning for us but tells us nothing about God or what God "sees".

[Kolokotronis]

"Paul is presuming they are filled with the Holy Spirit and have been chosen of God. And so should we. People fall away but they were never saved to begin with."

Then why does he warn us, and them, so continually about falling away or being "cut off"?

[HarleyD]

All men, Harley, not just the "elect". Is God exercising divine self dillusion? Or do these two passages point out the bankruptcy of the Calvinist position and support The Church's understanding of God's foreknowledge but not predestination?

It's a mystery.

Just kidding. :O)

1Ti 2:3-4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Is it really God's desire that "all men" come to the knowledge of the truth? If God wanted "ALL" men to come to the knowledge of the truth He would bring them to the knowledge of the truth. Consider this other passage:

2Ti 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

It is God who grants that we may repent and this leads to the knowledge of the truth. If it was God's desire for ALL men to come to the knowledge of the truth, He would grant that everyone repent which, of course, we know doesn't happen. If you want further proof consider:

2Ti 3:7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

There are some who never come to the knowledge of the truth. It is God that grants this capability and He discriminates to who He gives it to.

Therefore, your interpretation has to be incorrect that God wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth. He doesn't. So what does 1 Tim 2:3-4 mean? It can only be interpreted as a general statement that it is God's desire that men from all stations of life come to Him as He so draws them and grants that they may repent.

[Kolokotronis]

"...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

"Therefore, your interpretation has to be incorrect that God wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth. He doesn't. So what does 1 Tim 2:3-4 mean? It can only be interpreted as a general statement that it is God's desire that men from all stations of life come to Him as He so draws them and grants that they may repent."

Gee, HD, I just took a look at the Greek. Maybe my English translation was wrong, but...nope. The Greek says exactly what the English says.

Um, HD, you really ought to quote a little more from 2 Timothy, like the verses before and after 25:

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

HD, "And that they may RECOVER THEMSELVES" out of the snare...." Wow, men can do something for themselves?

As for 2 Timothy 3:7, well once again, what came before that verse and after?

"3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3:3 [[Without natural affection,]] trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was.

[jo kus]

You feel that a person is free to cooperate or not cooperate in their salvation. I feel that God changes the heart so we will cooperate with God during salvation. After we are saved there are periods of time when we will rebel simply because of our fleshy nature. But God understands and will bring us back to a point of cooperating with Him.

God changes your heart so we will cooperate - true. But the simple fact that we have those brief periods of following our fleshy selves (or longer periods...) should be enough evidence to convince you that you DO have free will to NOT choose God. If God steered you on every action, you wouldn't sin. You sinning AFTER your regeneration proves that you are not completely transformed (or completely "saved"). I think the point, though, is that man does cooperate - but you seem to believe we differ greatly here. We both agree that God begins to change our hearts, ever-so-slowly, it seems, into a "natural" heart (I take Ez to mean the one God gave Adam before the first sin).

I am claiming the title of "elect" based upon what God has said in His word. I have always put great store in the word of God and I noticed that the Catholic Church has as well believing it to be written by the "finger of God" if you will.

My argument is with those who believe they are ABSOLUTELY saved. I believe we know too many people who have made that claim - and then fall away. Yes, the Word of God says that we can be assured we will be saved, but I think that this presumes we will continue along our path - thus, over and over, we see the theme of judgment based on our actions in the New Testament. It's not quite done yet!

The Bible is the ONLY thing that can be believed

LOL! No, I think I'll just disagree and leave it at that! We are closing in on 3000 posts...

there are plenty of Christians in scripture who KNEW they were Christians. In fact THEY CALLED THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS. You can ONLY know your own heart and Paul states to "Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith".

Sure there are those who CALL themselves Christians. But it is more than a name, correct? How about this definition of a Christian:

"A person who loves pleasure, seeks comfort, flies from any suffering, is overanxious, complains, blames and is impatient at the least thing not in his favor is a Christian in NAME ONLY. If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself daily and follow me. (Luke 9:23)" From St. John Vianney.

Quite a definition. But I think if you read even some Protesant Christian's works of such great men as Dietrich Bonhoffer's (Discipleship), you will learn they agree. We REALLY find Christ in our self-denials... To those who make the claim to be "Christian", I remind them to look to Matthew 7:21 - "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens." I also will point to the parable of the cockle and the wheat, a parable about the visible Church, the community of God. Some will end up being cockles in the end - and no one else will recognize them! Cockles and wheat look identical, it is only the harvester who will recognize them. Thus, the servants don't pull them up now. The same of us in the Church. No one can really be sure whether they are cockle or wheat... Although I will agree we have an idea of ourselves.

It is too easy to convince oneself that he is a Christian. Actions speak louder than words. Faith is seen. To follow Christ, we must "become" another Christ.

People fall away all the time these days. They go to some sort of rally, get a big Christian high, and then end up going back to the lives they were leading. How many came to World Day (or whatever it was called) and slipped back? To you it looks like they "lost" their salvation. I would say they never had it to begin with.

I understand where you are coming from. I think we use the term "saved" differently. We tend to refer to salvation as what happens in the future. We consider the point of our regeneration (Baptism) as initial justification. We are righteous in God's eyes. This righteousness status will change - which is what you are talking about, I believe. Thus, a person, to us, isn't losing their salvation, but moves in and out of righteousness in God's eyes.

He surely won't let me go now after He has spent 30+ years on me.

How many people made it out of Egypt, Harley? How many were "saved" from the Pharaoh? Many thousands, according to Scripture. And how many made it to the promised Land? Two of the original? Paul makes this perfectly clear that this is an example for us today (in 1 Cor 10:1-12). Many are "saved" by Baptism - but this doesn't mean "saved" for eternal heaven. The Jews were an example, a model for us not to get overconfident, just as Paul discusses in Romans when he warns us that we can be cut off the tree, just like the Jews were. We can only hope that WE don't let HIM down! (note, you understand that I am not saying "by myself"?!) He has done everything short of drag us into heaven. It is our attachments to the flesh that keep us from Him.

In the end you say God saves a person today not knowing if He will be saved tomorrow. Wouldn't it be just as well to jump in front of a bus after you've been baptized?

LOL! No. I don't say that we don't "know", just that we should not be overconfident on what will happen five years from now in our lives. We SHOULD be secure that the Lord will continue to bless us. It is now to us to utilize His graces and continue to grow and become sanctified. We trust in God's mercy.

Regards

[jo kus]

I wish I had more time to read St John Chrysostom. Wonderful explanation on Adam's removal from the Garden.

Thanks again for the Father's quotes.

I recall that it is a teaching of the Fathers that Christ, upon His descent into Hades, first went to Adam to bring him to heaven with him...

Brother in Chrsit

[Kolokotronis]

"I recall that it is a teaching of the Fathers that Christ, upon His descent into Hades, first went to Adam to bring him to heaven with him..."

Yes, that is a theologoumenon. I've heard it too. The icon I posted would seem to indicate otherwise, but its fairly modern. Some very old ones I've seen in Mistras in Greece don't show any of the prophets of King David etc, but rather just show Adam and Eve.

[Forest Keeper]

Throughout the history of The Church, the Fathers and other holy people have continually warned us of the truly astonishing power of The Evil One over all of us and advise us that our lives will be a constant struggle with him and his minions. Your belief as outlined above, is just about the most dangerous thing any Christian can believe.

LOL! Well, I'm a dangerous man. :) I was talking about resident demons, a la Mark 5. That's why I said "no room at the inn" and mentioned the movie. (I still do believe that.) I do fully believe that we are in a constant state of spiritual warfare against satan, and that he constantly attacks us. Yes, I have experienced the example you used during a church service. I didn't know there was a name for that, "Logismoi". It's interesting.

"The whole essence and effort of the devil is to separate and remove our attention from God and entice it toward worldly concerns and pleasures. ... +John Chrysostomos

This one is my favorite. It's very true.