Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
I thought I learned from personal experience that being called a heretic was not the ultimate insult because heretics are, how shall I say, "partial breakers from a commonality"? :) Muslims are not like this. Being compared or equated to the theology of Islam would be the ultimate insult.
FK: "Jesus said He WAS GOD!"
Where does He say that? He never said "I am God." The reason why the first four councils were held by the Church was the ambiguity with which some Christians received His divinity, and because it is not stated so simply.
I had not the slightest idea that it was a matter of controversy that Jesus claims to be God in the Bible. Of course there are tons of examples in the Bible that show that Jesus is God, but here are some examples of where He says it Himself. I cannot wait to hear the interpretations of these verses: :)
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
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Ex. 3:14 "God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Now combo this with the following:
John 8:58-59 : 58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
WHY were they going to stone Him? Because everyone knew, INCLUDING Jesus, that He was claiming to be God. And along the same lines:
John 18: 4-6 : 4 Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?" 5 "Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6 When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.
Why would the soldiers ready to grab Him fall to the ground? Jesus claimed to be God with full authority and power.
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Rev. 1:8 : "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
AND:
Rev. 1:17-18 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Now, contrast the following:
Is. 44:6 : "This is what the LORD says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
In Revelation, is there a dispute we are talking about Jesus here?
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John 5:17-18 : 17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Jesus had to know how they would take it, right?
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John 14:5-10 : 5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
If you see and know Jesus then you see and know the Father. They are in each other because they are one essence.
Men don't have to do anything? The Bible disagrees quite often with that statement. DOING something is not the problem, Harley. It is doing something WITHOUT God, the attitude that one can earn salvation by doing something. However, one must cooperate with God's graces to be saved. There is a big difference between doing something without God and doing something with God. Are you going to be able to point out to a time when the Church believed that men do nothing at all for the sake of salvation?
"I will put my spirit in them and CAUSE them to walk in my statues...".
Nothing there about how often or if this will continue despite any turning away.
How long do you think we will do that before God bops us on the head to get our attention? Do you think we can withstand God's chastisement?
Even St. Augustine believed that men must somehow cooperate with God. One who does not shows the signs that they are not of the Elect. No one can withstand God's chastisements. But God also chastises and punishes the wicked, as well. It is difficult to determine whether a specific event is for our chastisement to return us to the fold or part of God's punishment for our wickedness. It takes discernment. In any case, only God knows who the elect are - we don't.
Regards
If you really would like to know our "dogma" I would suggest the Westminster Confession or the London Baptist Confession. While one is Presbyterian and the other Baptist they're fairly close. They'll answer all your questions.
Now if you could point me to the succinct confession of the Orthodox belief complete with scriptural references like the Westminster or Baptist confessions I would appreciate it. I've never been able to find them before.
Both are infallible and both have been written eventually. The only real difference is that it takes more time to cull the contents of Apostolic Tradition. Neither can be "modified", although our understanding of EITHER can vary over time. Even Protestants have different understandings regarding Scripture passages in time - such as those on slavery.
We just disagree that a non-inspired work can be inerrant. You use the argument all the time
Are you saying the teachings of the Apostles were not inspired by God?
We just disagree that a non-inspired work can be inerrant
I think the Apostles taught that all of their teachings were from God - thus, inspired by Him. I don't understand how you can toss out their teachings based on whether THEIR hand actually wrote something or not. Did Moses write about HIS own death? But you still see Deuteronomy as inspired by God?
When Jesus says His sheep follow His voice, it really means the sheep follow His voice as translated through the Church. We can't hear the voice of Jesus, we only hear the Church. And so on, and so on with a thousand Biblical teachings. Under this view Jesus is not a personal God at all, He is the executive who only speaks to middle management. :)
God speaks to the entire Church. We believe in the "sense of the faithful", the Spirit working within each individual to sense what God is leading the Church to believe. However, we believe it takes the Church bishops, the successors of the Apostles, to interpret that "sense". There are many different "voices" but only one truth. Thus, if we are one Body, we would presume there be one Mind of the Church. It is found within the "sense of the faithful", but how do you figure out which "voice" is correct? The Church guides the bishops to interpret that voice, so that when future heretics teach something, the BISHOPS can read this "sense" and say "we don't believe that, nor does the Church". Each individual bishop is a representative of his particular local church, so to speak. He "reads" that local "voice" and determines what the faithful think on a subject.
This is similar to the gift of tongues and the gift of discernment in individuals. What good is tongues if no one can understand them? Thus, Paul says that the gift of discernment is more important for the entire Church. The gift is given primarily to the Bishops.
I'm no Bible scholar, but I have read every word, as doubtless you have. So, I would say that if you can come up with a writing that even approaches the Bible in completeness, wisdom, consistency, love, doctrine, historical accuracy, (add ten more adjectives that are the Bible), then maybe I would look into Mormonism
So I couldn't write an Esther, a Philemon? I don't think it would be too difficult to write something that agreed with what was written before, one that shows love and wisdom. Internally, you couldn't prove that it wasn't Scripture. The ONLY way you can prove that something is not Scripture is if an outside means is used. Historical evidence. Outside witnesses to it.
A further question. What is to prevent someone from claiming to write something ELSE that is "Scripture" and claim it is from God? The Scripture says nowhere that the canon is closed! That is Apostolic Tradition! When if I wrote something and then claimed it was from God? How would you prove it wrong? When if I claimed to find something written by Peter or John? How would you prove INTERNALLY that it wasn't? Sorry, without external means, you CAN'T know what is or what is NOT the Bible. The same applies to other so-called Scripture. You will use external means to disprove the Koran, or Indian Scripture.
Based only the merit of the book by itself, without anyone else vouching for it, do you believe there is an equal to the Bible on earth?
The Bible is a compilation of letters. Some of them, at first glance, don't appear to belong or are not exactly what you would call "edifying" writings. The Book of Esther never mentions the word "God", unless you read the Catholic version from the Septuagint... And why is Philemon ONLY from God and not Paul just writing a letter?
Read some of Psalm 58: Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD. Let them melt away as waters [which] run continually: [when] he bendeth [his bow to shoot] his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces. As a snail [which] melteth, let [every one of them] pass away: [like] the untimely birth of a woman, [that] they may not see the sun. Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in [his] wrath. The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
It is writings such as that which led MANY people to believe that there were two separate Gods, the Demuirge of the Old Testament and the God of Love of the New Testament. Can you honestly tell me that Psalms 58 and the Gospel of Luke is written by the same God - WITHOUT EXTERNAL WITNESS??? No linguistic person would see any similarities between the teachings of Psalm 58 and the Gospel of Luke. It is ONLY the witness of the Church that tells us that BOTH are from the SAME GOD.
Regards
That is a poorly worded sentence I will say. Even Calvinists believe that man must come to God. We just believe that God makes everything 100% so. No one who the Father calls ever turns away. It's just that not everyone is called by God.
Nothing there about how often or if this will continue despite any turning away.
Let's see. God gives us a new heart, a new spirit, seal His Holy Spirit in us as our guarantee, and we become a new creature. And through all of this we'll turn away???? What's the point of God doing all of this anyway??? In the end it simply states that we're the captain of our souls-not God.
Even St. Augustine believed that men must somehow cooperate with God. One who does not shows the signs that they are not of the Elect.
Yes, it was a stupid statement from me. Man's will is bound until God sets us free. After that He guides us but as sheep we can stray. But God is our Good Shepherd and will never let us stray out of His hands.
In any case, only God knows who the elect are - we don't.
So, we must then conclude that He really didn't care for the very people He created in the Garden of Eden. In other words, God made rejects.
To be honest, I really don't know what the theology is on whether Adam and Eve eventually wound up in heaven or not, but I would like to know. My "guess" would be that they are both in heaven because God showed mercy on them by kicking them out of the garden, lest they should again partake of the fruit of the tree. God saved them from themselves. What does your side say?
Regarding "rejects", perhaps I wouldn't choose those words, but 'Yes', in essence you are correct. God does create many whom He already knows He will pass over for salvation. Glory be to God that He chose at least some as His elect. The universe is the Potter's workshop, so He makes the rules.
So God has authority to force us to love Him? The authority to change our minds and our hearts? That's love, right?
Well, YES! He does have the authority. Do you deny Him that authority? And, that IS ABSOLUTELY love. He expresses it by touching His elect and leading them to Him, with the guarantee that His elect will not slip out of His hands, even if the member at first doesn't cooperate. God has an amazing way of making His elect "an offer they can't refuse" without them even knowing it! :)
We don't have the authority to force a woman because it is morally wrong.
We don't have the authority because it is morally wrong, we didn't create her, and we couldn't anyway, even if we wanted to. (We were talking about making someone love us, right? :)
God is doing everything short of forcing us to save us. But people reject God out of their own pride and will.
Is the first part a typo? On the second part, I would say that all people will reject God out of their sin nature until God intervenes.
I wouldn't conclude that any more than I would conclude the angelic host had flaws with the fall of Satan and 1/3 of the angels. God wasn't surprise by them leaving and He certainly wasn't surprise by Adam and Eve. God made them exactly as He intended and they fell just as He intended.
While there is no clear reference to the election of Adam and Eve, many commentators (and I believe many church fathers) have always held Adam and Eve to have been saved. They base this upon the following verses:
So God has authority to force us to love Him? The authority to change our minds and our hearts? That's love, right?
Of course it is. Don’t you try to change the hearts and minds of your kids? You do this because you love them and know what’s best for them, don’t you? If they paint the neighbor's car or jump off a roof don't you have a stern talking to them. Why? Because you love them and you don't wish to see them hurt themselves. You’re just not always successful at changing their hearts and you’re not always right about the reason you want to change their hearts. God, OTOH is ALWAYS 100% successful at changing hearts and lives.
What your real gripe is, is simply that God doesn’t do this for everyone. This is incomprehensible to your Greek thought process. Instead you would rather rationalize that God offers everyone, everything and only a few accept His offer. Sorry. This isn’t the God of scripture. He makes choices and does what He pleases. And everything is perfectly right, holy and just regardless of what we think.
So, now we are introducing yet another twist to theology, according to FK, that has heretofore not been mentioned – on a permanent basis. I won't go into what "permanent" means, maybe we can discuss that on another thread. But, I suppose, you can raise your fist and curse God every now and then and still be saved? Is that what it means?
No, there is no new twist. I was talking about defiant sin with one of you all (forgive me for not remembering) as in Heb. 10:26, which relates to Num. 15:30-31, and ultimately back to Pharaoh in Ex. 14:8. The point was that people who raise "a high hand" against God, and shake their fists in defiance for the remainder of their lives will be lost because their original salvation must have been false. God promises that He will keep His own, so such a person would not have been kept, making their salvation impossible. The point is the permanency, not whether a person makes an occasional mistake.
However, you still fail to tell me who is doing all this – your will or God's will. If it is God's will, as I would imagine you will say, then why worry about it? Right? You are doing God's will either way, correct?
I have been telling you all along, but you don't hear! :) You won't distinguish between human experience and God's POV. When I said my sinner's prayer (with what I knew then), I "felt" like I was making a fully free choice, all on my own to choose Christ. I experienced all the benefits and satisfaction of that "accomplishment". In reality, God willing, my name was already among those written in the book of life and my sinner's prayer was merely a formality concerning something that was ordained as a sure thing at the beginning of time. I didn't know that at the time, of course, so I had the experience that most have, considering that I was so immature in the faith. It was a blessing that God arranged it that way so that I could have the experience.
Even though I now know better what actually happened, I will still continue to have the experience of free choice because I can't know the future. If I stayed back from decisions because they were "already pre-ordained" then I would just waste away, or go crazy trying to figure out all the permutations. That's not how God tells us to live our lives. He gives us pretty good clues in the Bible, in fact. So, I think God wants me to follow that road instead. God wants us to obey, not sit back and do nothing.
From your perspective doesn't God look down that "corridor of time" and see who those people are who will fall away? Why would they be saved in the first place if God knows tomorrow they will fall away?
"I and the Father are one."
And we are one in Jesus. What does that make us?
Because everyone knew, INCLUDING Jesus, that He was claiming to be God
A Son of God. [Mat 4:3,4:6, 8:29, 14:33, 16:16, etc.]
The priest tells Him in Mat 26:63 "I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God."
Christ answered but not what the priest asked Him. "Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."
The Son of man is the second Adam, FK, in the person of Jesus. Although the priest took it as "blasphemy" it is this kind of indirect Gospel language that has given rise to many heresies in the early centuries of Christianity that persist to this day, confusing the orthodox doctrine that Jesus is the Christ, God and Man, two natures, one Person, two wills, in perfect harmony.
This is not in the Scripture. This is derived from the Scripture but not by the Protestant prooftexting.
You not only like to make up your own quotes, now you fabricate word meanings as well. For the record: heresy is not an insult; it is a treaching that is outside the teaching of the Apostolic Church of Christ. Heretics can only be people who believe in One God. It's not a character description.
If I have no will, I am not guilty, sinful or in need of redemption, salvation or reason to exist. In fact, following your theology, this is not me speaking but God, I suppose!
The Nicene-Constantinopolean Creed.
Now, now. Remember this is based on the traditions of the fathers. ;O)
He does not wait for tomorrow. He sees where your choices have taken you (in your future). In other words He knows -- by seeing the begining and the end of times -- what choices you freely make and where these choices take you.
Omniscience does not equal predestination.
So tell me, if God does everything, AND YOU DON'T COOPERATE, (for fear of being termed a Pelagian), exactly what DO you DO? YOU don't do anything, God does it, if you aren't cooperating.
God gives us a new heart, a new spirit, seal His Holy Spirit in us as our guarantee, and we become a new creature. And through all of this we'll turn away???? What's the point of God doing all of this anyway???
It would be difficult to explain this to someone - unless they knew how love works. Love is not forced upon another. And what's the point of God dying on the cross for men who will reject Him? Love.
Man's will is bound until God sets us free. After that He guides us but as sheep we can stray. But God is our Good Shepherd and will never let us stray out of His hands.
I agree, IF I am of the Elect. I have evidence that I am on the right track TODAY, but experience has led me to believe that it is possible that I can fall away. I humbly pray and hope that I do not. But I don't know what purpose God has for me - maybe I will be an example of how a "devout" Christian can still succumb to the temptations of the devil and fall away - a teaching of perseverance for other Christians? That is why we should continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling - because GOD decides if I am of the elect, not me.
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation
Paul is presuming that those he teaches will SUCCEED in running the race (Paul says he runs so he won't be disqualified later). Paul is not saying that every single person in the community is of the elect, but that the community in general is a collection of the elect.
Jesus teaches that there are saved and unsaved people WITHIN the visible community, the Church, in His parable on the wheat and the cockle. They are often indistinguishable (as cockles are indistinguishable from wheat). Paul certainly is not saying that each member is eternally saved! This would disagree with other portions of the Scriptures, for example, when Paul tells the Corinthians about particular sins that disinherit people from the Kingdom... We just don't know the status of a particular person until the harvest.
Regards
I was agreeing with you that the Gospel can be taught orally. What I forgot about is that our "Gospels" are not really the same thing. :)
We divide Tradition into two components: Apostolic, and Ecclesiastical. The latter is changeable. ...
Thanks for the explanation.
If Christ had intended for all men to have such power, He would have given it to them.
Or, in the alternative, if Christ had intended for any men to have the power after the Apostles, He would have given it to them. :) But seriously, I am a supporter of the laying on of hands. It was one of the most deeply moving ceremonies I have ever witnessed in our church. I know the recipient was very benefited, and the prayers were very real and produced results.
FK: "What, God can't handle forgiving sin Himself? :)"
Of course, but why did He give men the power to forgive sins in the first place in John's Gospel? Note, this is AFTER the Resurrection!
I want you to be sitting down when you read this, BUT :), I think we would disagree if even the Apostles had the actual authority to forgive sin. I would say the same for binding and loosening, since that can only come from heaven. (I know, you're SHOCKED! :) I think I would agree that they had the power to heal, and they certainly had a special blessing to evangelize.
Thus, the oral teachings preceded the written ones, and the written ones did not overturn the oral ones. Nor does it say anywhere that oral teachings are encapsulated completely within the Scriptures. This is a Protestant assumption that is proven incorrect based on the writings of the first Christians.
Are you saying that all oral teachings, including the ones that were later written down and became Apostolic Tradition were ALL in place and fully functioning from the beginning? Throughout all the centuries later, NOTHING new was "discovered"? For example, the Apostles taught a sinless Mary orally, etc.?
Then who was leading you to the Arminian view 2 months ago? How do you know that the "Spirit" won't lead you to another view next month? See, there can only be ONE Truth, and you cannot KNOW it in this manner!
To be honest, before I really didn't have an opinion because I had never thought of it before. (I didn't even know there was another way to look at it, so it was not like I had been rejecting the Calvinist, but then changed my mind.) I just saw other people I respect in my church espouse the Arminian view so if you had asked me I would have said that. I agree that there is only one truth and I believe the Spirit has recently either brought me to the absolute truth or closer to it, and I am thankful. I trust the Spirit to lead me as He chooses. You all don't learn everything instantly either, do you? :)
I find this means of determining proper doctrine as totally dependent on one's current opinion, a subjective matter, rather than an objective one coming from outside of one's self.
That's because you don't believe the Spirit talks to scrubs like us. :) We believe in a personal God.
Well, hold on, here is your chance to learn, as I am preparing to give a class on just that subject this Thursday. The Eucharist is THE source of our Christian walk. Christ comes to us and abides within us in visible form. From this abiding, we believe that Christ sanctifies us in a most perfect manner - when we are open to receiving Him.
Then I came to the right place. :) I'm not sure why, but I have been thinking of the "real presence" as that Jesus is "there" at the ceremony and present. Now, I see that He actually enters the body of the partaker. Yes? I just remember reading a million posts ago from someone or someone's link that the actual molecules of the bread and wine do not change, etc. So, I thought there was some element of symbolism. At the moment of partaking, if I have this right so far, does that mean that both the Spirit and Christ are indwelling simultaneously? If Christ enters at every partaking, when does He leave? (I'm not trying to be flippant. :)
You make the decision but God has given you a new heart. That new heart is to follow God. You become a "slave to righteousness" wanting to do the things that are of God. If God gives you the desire to follow Him you will follow Him.
It would be difficult to explain this to someone - unless they knew how love works.
Scripture please-this is theology, not philosophy.
"...but experience has led me to believe that it is possible that I can fall away...
Quit basing it on experience. You can't know other people's heart although you can make some good guesses. All you can know is your own. We rest on the promises of God. He has said it. He will do it.
Paul is presuming that those he teaches will SUCCEED in running the race
Paul is presuming they are filled with the Holy Spirit and have been chosen of God. And so should we. People fall away but they were never saved to begin with.
Yes. Is this the Spirit's fault? ;)
if Christ had intended for any men to have the power after the Apostles, He would have given it to them. :)
Didn't He?
To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: Titus 1:4-5
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 2 Tim 2:1-2
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 1 Tim 4:14
Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. Acts 14: 22-23
...there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Gal 1:7b-9
So much for just anyone grabbing their scrolls and interpretating for themselves the Word of God. Seems the first followers of the Lord meant for the Church to continue through THEIR teachings from God, not only in space, but in time...
I think we would disagree if even the Apostles had the actual authority to forgive sin. I would say the same for binding and loosening, since that can only come from heaven.
WHO gave the Apostles this power? Christ did. And WHO was given ALL power and authority on earth? Christ. So Christ, upon HIS Divine authority, commissioned the Apostles. I don't quite understand the disagreement, it is pretty clear in Sciptures that "As My Father has sent me, so I send you (Apostles)" with power and authority.
Are you saying that all oral teachings, including the ones that were later written down and became Apostolic Tradition were ALL in place and fully functioning from the beginning?
We don't know at what point various doctrines were ORALLY taught! However, it would be fair to say that some were discovered after more profound meditation on God's Word. The Word of God will never be fully understood by humans while in this life. It would be silly to say that every Christian knew everything that Christ taught, all of the nuances and profound teachings directly. They "knew" in a sense, though, what they believed - thus, when questioned, they would recognize correct or permissible teachings.
I agree that there is only one truth and I believe the Spirit has recently either brought me to the absolute truth or closer to it, and I am thankful.
So we really cannot know, of ourselves, if we have achieved the truth on a doctrine, correct? So how is a Christian supposed to KNOW these important issues? This is why Christ left a power to certain people to bind and loosen. Would God leave us totally in the dark, not knowing if we are just following a whim, rather than truth?
That's because you don't believe the Spirit talks to scrubs like us. :) We believe in a personal God.
You keep misunderstanding me on this concept. God speaks to us. We have a personal relationship with God through the Scriptures, through our daily lives, and for Catholics, through the sacraments, visible comings of God to us. I think it should be obvious, though, that we can't determine doctrine individually, though. If there can be only one truth, and men separately cannot agree on it, what does that say about the Spirit of Truth revealing such matters to you and me? God reveals DOCTRINE through the Church - ONE truth.
I'm not sure why, but I have been thinking of the "real presence" as that Jesus is "there" at the ceremony and present. Now, I see that He actually enters the body of the partaker. Yes?
Yes to both. Christ is present in a more substantial manner through the Eucharist. But He is also present through the Body of the faithful, as well ("when two or more are gathered in my name, I am there with them"). If we say Christ must abide in us, how better than through the Eucharist, when He enters us visibly?
So, I thought there was some element of symbolism
There is. The Eucharist is both symbol and reality. The physical eating of the elements is supposed to recall to mind HIS giving of Himself and instill within us the same desires for other people. But we also realize He is there as He promised - and it is through this partaking of His flesh under the appearance of bread that we have life. But not physical life - spiritual life.
At the moment of partaking, if I have this right so far, does that mean that both the Spirit and Christ are indwelling simultaneously?
Where Christ is, there is the Father and Spirit - remember the teachings of the Trinity. All Three act together, as there is not three separate wills among the Three Persons of the Trinity. What One does, they ALL do. While we say Christ has entered us through the Eucharist, the Spirit is THE Gift, as He is the one who blesses us with the gifts and virtues that we need to walk the Christian walk. It is the Spirit that makes the Eucharist "operative" in our transformation into another Christ. But note that all Three are present and all Three are giving of themselves to us and transforming us. We, as men, "assign" different roles to each of the persons of the Trinity.
If Christ enters at every partaking, when does He leave?
Christ is present in this manner as long as the Eucharist remains - 15 minutes is generally what I have heard. But it is His effects, the Spirit's gifts, that remain. As long as His effects remain within us, He continues to grace us with His presence, in a different manner. Thus, He doesn't "leave us", unless we sin mortally, a proposition that is not very likely in a communicant who has worthily received the Lord in this manner.
With proper disposition, the frequent reception of the Eucharist begins to transform us, making us more patient, more loving, more faithful, etc. The Eucharist is thus called the summit and source of our Christian life. Certainly, there are other means that Christ graces us with His presence and gifts. But the Eucharist is the most effective and most substantial.
Brother in Christ
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