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To: jo kus
So tell me, if God does everything, AND YOU DON'T COOPERATE, (for fear of being termed a Pelagian), exactly what DO you DO? YOU don't do anything, God does it, if you aren't cooperating.

You make the decision but God has given you a new heart. That new heart is to follow God. You become a "slave to righteousness" wanting to do the things that are of God. If God gives you the desire to follow Him you will follow Him.

It would be difficult to explain this to someone - unless they knew how love works.

Scripture please-this is theology, not philosophy.

"...but experience has led me to believe that it is possible that I can fall away...

Quit basing it on experience. You can't know other people's heart although you can make some good guesses. All you can know is your own. We rest on the promises of God. He has said it. He will do it.

Paul is presuming that those he teaches will SUCCEED in running the race

Paul is presuming they are filled with the Holy Spirit and have been chosen of God. And so should we. People fall away but they were never saved to begin with.

2,639 posted on 02/14/2006 10:45:48 AM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: HarleyD
You make the decision but God has given you a new heart. That new heart is to follow God. You become a "slave to righteousness" wanting to do the things that are of God. If God gives you the desire to follow Him you will follow Him.

Isn't that cooperating with the new heart that God has placed within us? It should be apparent that even with a new heart, I CAN sin. Thus, I must cooperate with that new heart and follow Christ, correct? I agree with what you write above - and I see it as cooperating with God's graces.

You can't know other people's heart although you can make some good guesses. All you can know is your own. We rest on the promises of God. He has said it. He will do it.

It should be evident that WE even change, in our own minds. Our knowledge of ourselves also changes. Thus, our knowledge is not the determinant of whether we are of the Elect. God doesn't communicate that information to anyone. We have FAITH and HOPE that we are of the elect, Harley. God will "do" what He will "do" to those whom He will. You are claiming the title of "Elect" based on what knowledge within you? Please forgive me if I sound skeptical, but anyone can convince themselves of this.

Paul is presuming they are filled with the Holy Spirit and have been chosen of God. And so should we.

Exactly. PRESUMING.

People fall away but they were never saved to begin with.

Well, that is interesting. Without going into the details of what "saved" means, doesn't this admit that one might NOT be of the elect, despite their wishing it so? My point is that I might act like a follower of Christ today, but in five years, I might witness something or undergo something that makes me fall away from the Church. You say I never was saved, I say I fell away. In either case, the 'ME' of today cannot know I am of the Elect, can I? This is my argument 2000 posts ago and remains so.

If a Protestant admits that "someone was never saved to begin with", what way will you assure yourself TODAY that YOU are saved? You CANNOT! Those same people who "were never saved" are the same people who swear they love Jesus and will never fall away and love God, etc... In the end, the Protestant's self-assured salvation is not absolutely secure.

Regards

2,642 posted on 02/14/2006 11:39:21 AM PST by jo kus
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To: HarleyD; jo kus

"Paul is presuming they are filled with the Holy Spirit and have been chosen of God. And so should we. People fall away but they were never saved to begin with."

Then why does he warn us, and them, so continually about falling away or being "cut off"?


2,654 posted on 02/14/2006 6:06:54 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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