Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
That is what the scriptures states.
Which begs the question: why pray, why repent; why redeem; why save?
It is precisely because salvation is from the Lord that we can pray for the salvation of others. If man has God given free will then there is no point in praying. God will not intervene in a person's free choice. Consequently, you can't pray for Sam's salvation simply because Sam is exercising his divine right.
When one stops and think about prayer, it is a great mystery for God's knows all our needs, takes care and watches over us, etc and then ask us to pray for things. The only thing I can tell you about prayer is that it helps us to know God's will. If you pray for something and regardless if your prayer is answered or not, you know what is God's will. God answers our prayers (or not answers them) to show us His will.
Your repentance is spiritually void because you say that whatever you do is simply because it's God's will.
Our repentance is not void. We repent because God brings us to a point of repentance.
Our redemption is unnecessary because we never sinned; we simply obeyed God.
I believe I'm on record to say man does sin, even after becoming a Christian. Christians just don't practice sin.
If everything is of God's will, lest we "thwart God," then nothing is our will.
We don't "thwart" God. God "thwarts" us.
Why? God won't change His mind according to your theology. Their fate has already been sealed.
God will not intervene in a person's free choice
Oh? And you know that how?
Our repentance is not void. We repent because God brings us to a point of repentance
What are you repenting for? Everything you did -- whether good or evil you did because it was God's will which you cannot resist in your theology (BTW, Scriptures clearly state that men can reject God).
So, you are repenting for something you have not done of your own volition. That makes sense!
I believe I'm on record to say man does sin, even after becoming a Christian. Christians just don't practice sin
That's not what I said. I said we haven't sinned, according to your theology, because all we did was obey God. How can obedience to God be a sin?!
So, if we have not sinned, but simply obeyed God's will, as your theology claims, than why do we need to be redeemed?
Your answer makes no sense whatsoever, I hope you realize that. What is the difference between sinning and practicing sin? What is sin in your theology anyway? Obviously we use the same word but not the same concept.
So, to recap Reformed theology to which you and FK subscribe and describe so far: everything is God's will; we have no choice but to obey; we do good or evil as God wants us to; even satan, by necessity, is God's faithful servant; God saves some, destroys others not because they did something on their own but just because; we do nothing outside of God's will, yet we sin (?), and repent (again by God's will) for something we have not done on our own; and God needs to redeem us for our sin (?) which we committed by His will; God is the author of evil.
Have I missed something? Oh, yes, we pray for the salvation of others but really to know God's will, and because He wants us to pray to Him although He will never change His mind or what He has pre-ordained.
1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (e.g. slave to righteousness)
Paul in Romans 7 continues to fight against the flesh.
Romans 7 has for almost 1700 years (if not longer) been interpreted that Paul was speaking in regards to a non-Christian. "Who will rescue me...? Thanks be to Christ." It was only within the last several hundred years that this has been translated in the cardinal sense of a believer falling away.
On the contrary. I would say that if God took the time to give you grace and faith wouldn't He give you ENOUGH grace and faith to keep you going? I would suggest that anything outside of this reasoning is inconsistent unless one wants to say that it is man's works that saves him. Then you get into another sticky issue.
As far as the heretics in the early church, Johns plainly recognized this fact and states that they were NEVER part of us because if they had been of us they would have continued with us. The reason God gives us heretics is so that we can see what is false gospel. Our Lord Jesus has always stated there would be the wheat and the tares. (1 John 2:19) It is my personal belief that we all hold errors and God's divine reasoning for mixing genuine Christians up with tares is so that we CAN sort out the truth if we are honest with ourselves.
Those who are of the true Christian faith will continue with Christ simply because of God's grace and mercy in His bestowing upon His chosen His faith. Would you disagree with this last sentence?
This isn't a message of "perseverance" to Christians. This is a message to the Hebrews that if they reject the truth of the message of Christ to go back to their legalistic laws, there remains no longer a sacrifice for sin. The Law was swept away with Christ.
How can the elect of God, God's chosen people, reject the truth of the message of Christ? Or are some elect predestined to reject?
Not all of the Jews are "elected". Paul states this in several places.
Those who are of the true Christian faith will continue with Christ simply because of God's grace and mercy in His bestowing upon His chosen His faith.
The sticking point is the understanding of the word chosen. While I can't speak for everyone who believes in free will, I think most in that camp would say that God chooses everyone for communion with Himself, that is the experience of grace, theosis, salvation, sanctification. But this is an encounter that involves reciprocity--a relationship of person to Person. Personhood requires freedom of response. And that also entails the freedom to fail and miss the mark.
If God wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved.
I understand that that is the Calvinist position. But does Calvinism give a reason as to why God wants some men not to be saved?
To think the Jews are somehow elected by God and carries a special place in His heart is despensationalism.
So would it be correct in Calvinism to say that some Jews are God's chosen people and some Jews are not God's chosen people? Or that no Jews are God's chosen people?
18 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. 19 For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just.
Verse 18 says, all condemned and all justified. Verse 19 says, many are sinners, and many are justified. Unless "all" is used in the sense of "many" in Verse 18, St. Paul contradicts himself in these two verses. But verse 18 picks up from verse 12. I do not see how verse 12 should be read as "absolutely all", when verse 18 must be read as "many".
That's a nice try, but I don't think it gets you all the way home. :) The way I see it is that "many" is used in the sense of "many others", as in all others following Adam. Of course, all are not justified, but from our point of view, all have a chance to be justified. From our POV, every human is in the mission field. God is the only who knows the names of the chosen and the passed over. So it is "many" that is really like "all" rather than the other way around.
If you say that all really means "many" are you arguing that "many" really means billions and billions and billions EXCEPT MARY? Or, do you believe that others were also sinless? Are you rejecting original sin? Paul obviously knew who Mary was. All he would have to do is give her a pass in one verse, one time in all his writings and then I'd be with you. We would know to properly interpret all of his other writings because the Bible must be consistent. Yet he does not.
In fact, I thought this wasn't even an infallible declaration until 150 years ago. That tells me there must have been some disagreement about, even among Catholics, until that time.
Is Paul saying in verse 12 that since all, including Mary, die, then all, including Mary and John the Baptist, sin? Verse 14 explains that not all sinned in a similar way. Paul makes clear that death came from one man, Adam. The implication is that the sin of Adam alone is sufficient to cause death of all. It is not logically necessary for all to sin in order for all to die.
I think the death Paul spoke of was spiritual death, but yes, I think he was saying that everyone after Adam, including Mary and John the Baptist had sinned and were therefore unworthy of heaven without Christ.
I see the distinction Paul is making in verse 14 as meaning that the theater of sin is greater than breaking the Commandments, because people sinned before there were any Commandments. Adam received a specific commandment from God so it is the same thing. I also see part of this idea being that man cannot be saved by simply following the Commandments. Jesus was clear on this.
I agree that the sin of Adam is sufficient to cause all of our spiritual deaths (original sin). Being created with the sin nature is enough to doom us, we will sin if it is physically possible. We would both agree that aborted babies, etc. are given a special dispensation by God, even though they may not have "sinned" in any way that we understand it.
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." -- Isaiah 43:10
Chosen so that we believe, not because we believe.
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" -- Ephesians 1:4 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." -- Romans 9:16 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -- John 1:13"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." -- John 15:16
Saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Scripture gives the reason.
"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who are thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." -- Romans 9:18-33
Thank you for the Bible quotes. What I am asking is, does Calvinism give any reason why God chooses not to elect some people?
Again, thank you for the Bible quotes. But I am asking if you can put your reasons in your own words, that is for clarification of how you understand those quotes from the Bible.
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:9-10"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Why do you think He didn't elect all people?
Or are you a universalist who thinks all people are God's elect?
I believe that is your position isn't it, that God didn't elect all people? Are you trying to say that I am a Calvinist?
Or are you a universalist who thinks all people are God's elect?
What I am saying is that every person is created uniquely by God, and therefore has the invitation to respond with thanksgiving to the Love of the Holy Trinity.
Did God elect anyone?
You and I preach the Gospel to all men, but only those who have been reborn by the Holy Spirit can and will respond, according to His will for His glory as ordained from before the foundation of the world.
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." -- Mark 4:11-12 "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day." -- Romans 11:5-8"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
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