Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Forest Keeper
Adam's sin causes us to be without something we otherwise would have had through him, right? That thing is Sanctifying Presence, as you say. So, Adam had it and lost it. Therefore, we are not born with it. You do not consider this to be change? I do.

God created us good. He said so. But yet, Adam sinned. As a result, we have lost that sanctifying presence that enables man to choose the good. This sanctifying presence is restored upon our regeneration. But all of this is not part of OUR nature. It is God's existence and presence within us. Again, if Christ took on our nature, He took it on in its original configuration as Adam had it.

It is sinful, therefore we cannot come to God by ourselves.

If our nature is sinful, then Christ did not take on a human nature. The Scriptures says that Christ was born sinless. Thus, if human nature = sinfulness, Christ only APPEARD human. This is a teaching of an anti-Christ, as John says.

The Spirit leads us through sanctification and ensures that it happens. The Spirit guides us in prayer and prays for us, especially when we don't even know what to pray for. Without the Spirit we could not persevere.

What does any of that have to do with the Spirit interceding to the Father for us - IF all is "done"?

Without God, that is not truly asking for forgiveness and that person will not be forgiven. Of course the Bible teaches that anyone who does ask with God will be forgiven.

So how do you know you have "truly" asked for forgiveness of sins? Again, you are basing your "salvation" on a human quality - the manner of asking for forgiveness. If it is "true" forgiveness, you're in. If later, after 10 years of thinking you had truly asked forgiveness, and then subsequently fall away, you are told you never had "true" forgiveness...See where this is going? Either you had it or you didn't. Later falling away has NOTHING to do with something you did in your distant past!

I don't think the Jews who died in the desert were ever saved, if they were killed for their transgressions.

Perhaps you should read 1 Cor 10:1-12 again. Paul is using it "as an example"... EVERYONE who crossed the Red Sea had faith in God. They were saved from slavery - which Paul and Peter equates to the spiritual sense. You are approaching Scripture with your mind already made up that people cannot fall away. As a result, you refuse to see what is plainly written.

Paul correctly reiterates that perseverance is necessary.

Perseverence from what? Falling away as the Jews did...

Regards

4,119 posted on 03/28/2006 3:00:05 PM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4114 | View Replies ]


To: jo kus
But yet, Adam sinned. As a result, we have lost that sanctifying presence that enables man to choose the good. This sanctifying presence is restored upon our regeneration. But all of this is not part of OUR nature. ... If our nature is sinful, then Christ did not take on a human nature. The Scriptures says that Christ was born sinless. Thus, if human nature = sinfulness, Christ only APPEARD human.

I suppose the only way this could work is that humans are not born with human nature, they are born with some other nature. Is there a name for this non-human nature that we are born with? Christ, therefore, was the only one born with a real human nature, a nature of sinlessness. But even here, we still run into all of your objections to Christ being born unlike us. OTOH, if you have Christ being born with a fallen nature, then you have Christ fighting against Himself. Very odd result.

So, Christ was born without sanctifying presence in order to be like us? Did He receive this sanctifying presence at His Baptism, as an adult believer? If so, how was Jesus able to do any good before that? It really seems like you are completely redefining what the human "nature" is. You are forced to reject that there is any blemish in human nature. Of course this goes directly against scripture.

What does any of that have to do with the Spirit interceding to the Father for us - IF all is "done"?

All is done but the doing, so to speak. Fortunately, we do not have to rely on ourselves for the doing, or else it would be as you say, and not really done. However, since God promises us He will take care of the doing we can know for sure that it will happen, thus, for all intents and purposes, it is "done" if one believes that God is reliable. The Spirit is a part of all this.

So how do you know you have "truly" asked for forgiveness of sins? Again, you are basing your "salvation" on a human quality - the manner of asking for forgiveness.

I would call it faith, but if I am basing my knowledge of my own salvation on a human quality, then you do the same thing. You rely on the teachings of extra-Biblical men for your salvation. You say the Spirit leads them only, I say the Spirit leads them and all believers.

FK: "Paul correctly reiterates that perseverance is necessary."

Perseverence from what? Falling away as the Jews did...

Yes, this is evidence that those Jews never had faith to begin with. I read 1 Cor 10:1-12 and it doesn't say that any of them ever had true faith, it says they acted like others of faith and practiced similar rituals. So what? Anyone can do that.

4,291 posted on 04/02/2006 2:50:36 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4119 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson