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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper
Spot on, jo. If you are "saved," as they believe, when you say the Sinner's Prayer, and are now the (s)"elect" -- why is there a need for your judgment?!

I am perplexed by the dozens and dozens of times that God says man will be judged on what they do! Of course, WHY would He judge those who CANNOT come to God - because God does not give them anything to be able to do this - while those He DOES give His graces to He so overwhelms them that they are actually doing NOTHING??? What exactly is God judging? This is really where Protestantism falls on its face. It is not logical.

What they say is that God judges and condemns people because they cannot pick up 10,000 pounds over there head by themselves, while God judges and rewards other people for "watching" God driving a forklift and doing it for them entirely. THIS IS THE GOD OF LOVE?

What the Pharisees rejected was the idea that man can become God (and to this they refuse to consider that God can become man). The Jews of today consider Trinity "polytheism," again refusing to consider that God is Wisdom and that such Wisdom cannot be without a Word or Spirit.

Very true. I think the Pharisees were not open to thinking outside of their own self-constructed box. When they saw the proof of Jesus, when they heard His preaching, their hearts were closed, their eyes were blind. We see this even today. You can give a bible to an atheist and will he necessarily turn to God? Not if his heart and mind is closed to the possibility. In the same manner, our separated brothers of Protestantism are closed to the apostolic church's teachings that God is love. They prefer the vengengeful God who randomly chooses people to perdition and to heaven. Those He sends to hell can rightfully claim - "why am I here, you never gave me a chance or the ability to do fulfill your commands". The God of love... It saddens me that some people cannot see how much God greatly desires communion with us lowly humans.

You make a good point about paganism. One of the primary concepts in ancient religion was that of fate. It was the mainstay of paganism - that you were destined for a particular fate. Is not Calvinism a return to this paganism with Christian names? One of THE main reasons that people converted to Christianity was that they saw HOPE in their future. Their lives were not already predetermined. There was purpose in their lives again. This return to fate is truly depressing to the dignity of mankind.

The whole idea of Trinity is a supernatural revelation to mankind that God is one but not alone, and that He is a perfect Loving Community of Persons, which we are to emulate -- in love, out of love and because of love for others.

Yes, I think our brothers fail to understand the concept of "TRINITY" and how life WITHIN the Godhead is to be "mirrored" here on earth. That total self-giving of the Father to the Son and vice-versus. God IS love. He does not "possess" love. His very self, His essence, is love. He cannot do "loveless" things, as He wouldn't be true to Himself. We are created in this image. We come to the meaning and fulfillment of our lives when we learn how to give of ourselves to others. This concept, I believe, is totally foreign to Calvinists. Salvation is not based on love, but on random selection - for what purpose? An experiment? A whim? To show off His sovereignty to us puny humans? I don't see the condescending nature of love in Calvin's idea of God. The more I hear about it, the more I see why the Council of Trent firmly refuted this un-Christian heresy that removes Love from our lives. Fear and blind presumption are the watchwords here.

Brother in Christ

4,272 posted on 04/01/2006 10:53:32 AM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper
What they say is that God judges and condemns people because they cannot pick up 10,000 pounds over there head by themselves, while God judges and rewards other people for "watching" God driving a forklift and doing it for them entirely

That's how I see it, Jo, but I am sure FK will say it's not so, just as he keeps reminding us that (1) If God ordains something He is not the source of it or responsible for it; yet, Calvinists will tell you that each and every one of us is exactly as God ordained! (2) He will tell you that giving us freedom of will somehow "diminishes" Him, but fails to consider that perhaps our free will is exactly what God ordained in order for us to be able to love Him, freely, because love that is not free is no love. (3) Calvinists will tell you that God loves only those whom He created from all eternity to "love" Him. (4) They consider love an "irresistible" obligation from which no one can shirk.

You can give a bible to an atheist and will he necessarily turn to God? Not if his heart and mind is closed to the possibility

Absolutely! The Bible give no one a faith. Faith comes from God calling us to Him. It's an invitation which he makes incessantly with human beings, and gets rejected repeatedly by them.

Just consider 1 Sam 8:7 "And the LORD said unto Samuel,... they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them..."

and again,

1 Sam 10:19 "And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations

God offers; we reject or accept.

One of THE main reasons that people converted to Christianity was that they saw HOPE in their future

Yes, hope. Heb 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

His very self, His essence, is love

That was the missing part in the OT. Love is not an attribute of God, His "characteristic," but as you say -- His essence, His nature. That's what He is.

The more I hear about it, the more I see why the Council of Trent firmly refuted this un-Christian heresy that removes Love from our lives

Just as the Orthodox Patriarch Jeremiah II and his Synod rejected Lutheran divines three times and basically told them to stop writing to him. He also reprimanded them for disparaging the Pope. A God Who does everything for His own Glory is not a God of love, but of someone who is in love with Himself. We don't know such a God. Our God came, became Man, suffered and died so that all mankind may be free. He didn't do that for His own Glory.

4,273 posted on 04/01/2006 11:41:13 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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