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To: William Terrell; annalex
But the people who would seek the Kingdom do read the Bible and do understand it, and the teachings of Jesus were to individuals

Fantasy. He taught mostly to the Apostles. To others He spoke in parables.

You do not make a disciples of a nation

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" [Mat 28:19, NAB]

The Greek original uses the verb maqetusate from maqeteuo (to be a disciple of, to make a disciple, to follow one's teaching). The verb is also in Aorist (future tense).

You are clearly saying the Bible is not saying what it is clearly saying.

Those who are illiterate today have the Gospels read to them, and hearing, they understand, if they are of that heart

If Christ wanted everyone to read the Bible and interpret it as they please He would have made that happen. Instead, He clearly chose not to, but to commission His Apostles to teach others. It was not a Jewish practice to read the Bible and, being a pious Jew, Jesus would have never said otherwise. Sola scriptura is simply not scriptural. Period. It is a Lutheran invention.

This is the stone upon which those churches who claim dominance are broken

Hardly. The only breaking is in the Protestant world where the never-ending search for the "true church" results in ever-increasing "denominations" (somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-plus thousand known ones to this date).

There are indeed as many opinions as there are people but there is only one opinion in the Gospels and it is clear

Not in the Protestant world.

the authority for the salvation for each man is the responsibility of that man

No man has authority to save himself. You do have options. But salvation comes only from God.

The church had to make do with Peter thereby causing a scriptural crisis

LOL!

The notion that the Catholic, or any, church is the gatekeeper of spiritual salvation itself causes a scriptural crisis

LOL!

The only way the church has been able to pass it over was because it taught to ignorant people and babies that believe anything you tell them, unable to read and think for themselves

LOL!

The church, being the leader of the unthinking and slavishly accepting man, is the giving way to the thinking man

Yes, that's obvious, where "thinking man" is the final arbiter of what is God's and what is not, by virtue of reason. Yup, mankind will figure everything out, even God. No lack of pride and arrogance there in our "supreme" ability to understand and know everything and all by creating rationalism as a form of religion.

You can cite your traditions and clumsily interpreted scripture all you like, but the die is cast

This is hysterical!

You can argue with me all you want to, but the scriptures are crystal clear

Sometimes. IN the case of making all nations the disciples of Christ, it is crystal clear indeed. I wish you would see it too.

152 posted on 11/16/2006 9:17:03 AM PST by kosta50 (Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
Fantasy. He taught mostly to the Apostles. To others He spoke in parables.

So only the apostles had the Kingdom of God within? Only the apostles could seek first the Kingdom of God and all else would be added to them?

Jesus spoke in parables by His compassion. Once knowledge is known, it is the responsibility of the knower to exact it. Many were not ready, but many were, hence "For him with ears let him hear."

The apostles were ready, too. So what?

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" [Mat 28:19, NAB]

You already quoted that passage and I told you what it meant. A nation is a corporate entity, artificial, that is, composed of its individual members. The is hard material physical reality like the law of gravity.

You can't access a "nation" as a person. The closest you can come is access to the leadership, the government and the corruption that always therein, and the leadership cannot commit a spiritual pathway for the citizens of that nation. This is what America is founded on. You're American, right?

You must access each individual in the nation. You are dealing with a figure of speech, poetic imagery, which the Bible is full of.

I have a hard time believing you are using these mediocre arguments to support a human run organization having spiritual sovereignty of all the people in the world and a gatekeeper to God Almighty Himself.

If Christ wanted everyone to read the Bible and interpret it as they please He would have made that happen. Instead, He clearly chose not to, but to commission His Apostles to teach others. It was not a Jewish practice to read the Bible and, being a pious Jew, Jesus would have never said otherwise.

He did make that happen. I can, right now, kneel and pray to God and He will meet my need, unless it is selfish. I do and He does. I have endless testimony over the course of my life. I am not Catholic.

So what if he commissioned people to teach others? His mission was to spread the Gospel. You are in the silly position of claiming only those who He chose to spread it have the authority to send a person to Heaven or to Hell.

As for "sola scriptura" vs Tradition. We know what we read is from those ancient times. How do we know any oral "Tradition" was really preached? It wasn't written, because it was oral. Because the Catholic church says so, to its benefit and increase?

I don't think so. God condemns fools.

Sola scriptura is simply not scriptural.

Neither is "Tradition". Oh, the word "tradition" may be used in the scriptures, but who knows what it meant? The word "scriptures" is used, too, and references to using them to teach. We know what that means.

Hardly. The only breaking is in the Protestant world where the never-ending search for the "true church" results in ever-increasing "denominations" (somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-plus thousand known ones to this date).

So what if there 200,000?

When an individual, thought his own agency, can reach salvation and eternal life, by seeking the Kingdom, which is within each individual, any church that claims sovereignty over a person's soul, Catholic or Protestant, is broken.

Not in the Protestant world.

Yes, in the Protestant world. All that is specifically needful is agreed upon, unless it be some Jim Jones sect. As for individually enacted techniques, well, every person is different, like every blade of grass. God knows what is in the heart.

I will agree with you that some sects are drifting toward the heretical fringe, but, then, the Catholic church is awash is sin and sodomy.

No man has authority to save himself. You do have options. But salvation comes only from God.

Salvation indeed comes from God. Not any church. The Kingdom of God is within, and there you seek it. It is not inside a church, Catholic or Protestant. The scriptures are clear.

LOL

So you can't refute what I said? Do you understand what I said.

Yes, that's obvious, where "thinking man" is the final arbiter of what is God's and what is not, by virtue of reason. Yup, mankind will figure everything out, even God. No lack of pride and arrogance there in our "supreme" ability to understand and know everything and all by creating rationalism as a form of religion.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 18:19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

Jesus was all the time reasoning with the scribes and Pharisees over scripture.

God gave man a mind and reason. He meant us to use it.

Sometimes. IN the case of making all nations the disciples of Christ, it is crystal clear indeed. I wish you would see it too.

The scripture that teach individuals to have faith (only an individual can do that) seek the Kingdom (only an individual can do that) and other things only an individual can do to reach salvation, the scripture are crystal clear. Only in those which may be open to interpretation can the church gain foothold, but doing so, it drifts outside the crystal clear communication of the the vast majority of the scriptures (scriptural crisis).

The difference is that you are invested in the Catholic church, linked through the natural human being's desire to feel superiority and the fear of eternal damnation if not invested in the church. You cannot hear what I say. But, perhaps others, not so programed and conditioned, will.

I find it interesting that church plays upon the specific negative aspects of our sinful natures to project itself to gain power.

175 posted on 11/17/2006 10:40:50 AM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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