A History of the Church: 1517 A.D. to the Present Protestantism and its Forms

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Church_Dogma/Church_Dogma_013.htm ^ | unknown | Fr. John A. Hardon

[nkycincinnatikid]

bookmark this pleasant exchange between genuine wits

[Wallace T.]

If language has any meaning, then Protestantism represents those theological positions taken by the Reformers of the 16th and 17th Centuries. To use a political analogy, conservatism in the American sense represent a set of political beliefs rooted in the political views of the Founding Fathers and defined in the post-World War II era by men such as Russell Kirk, William Buckley, Frank Meyer, Henry Hazlett, etc. Someone may call himself a conservative, but if he is an advocate of socialized medicine, gun control, etc., he falsely labels himself.

You have given a definition of Catholic based on adherence to the Papacy and its entire teachings over time. Why are the Eastern Orthodox and High Church Anglicans not Catholic, even though they call themselves by that name? Or for that matter, dissidents on the left (liberation theologians) or the right (Feeneyites, Lefevrists) who call themselves Catholic? (In fact, the right dissidents are closer theologically to the canons of Trent than are modern Catholics.) By your definition, however, none of these groups are not Catholic because of their nonadherence to the Papacy and the entire body of teachings.

You have given what you consider a valid identification of Catholicism based on your reasonable definition of the term, not any authority you have. I have given a definition of Protestantism based on my observation, which is supported by historical context.

[sitetest]

Dear bornacatholic,

As a Once, Current, and Future Officer of the Knights of Columbus, I hereby dispose upon you dispensation from the Rule of No-Drinking-On-A-School-Night. However, all bottles opened in light of this dispensation must be emptied before the evening's end, or dispensation is retroactively revoked.


DGK S/K sitetest, PGK

[Wallace T.]

Unitarianism was a theological movement that arose in Britain and America in the 18th Century. It had its precursors in the days of the Church Fathers as well as in the Reformation era, Michael Servetus, for example. The movement began as a rejection of Trinitarianism, and later expanded to deny the divine inspiration of the Bible and other core Christian doctrines, such as the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, and the Substitutionary Atonement. All of the major threads of the Reformation were Trinitarian, and the Lutheran, Reformed, and Anglican churches recognized the authority of the first six ecumenical councils, which defined the character of the Trinity and the fully divine, fully human nature of Jesus Christ. The Reformers universally believed in the divine inspiration of Scripture.

By abandoning the theological positions of the Reformers in these areas, which in these respects are in entire agreement with Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, the Unitarians cannot be defined as Protestant.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

This post filed under Roswell/Fake Moon Landing

LOL. So now we're supposed to just take what they say on faith.

But we're not supposed to take what Scripture says on faith.

Interesting distinction.

[adiaireton8]

I do not understand why Fr. Hardon ties Calvin to Pelagianism. Does he mean that Calvin goes to the opposite extreme? Calvin strongly opposed Pelagianism.

And how exactly, does Fr. Hardon think Calvin is guilty of Manicheanism? Thanks.

-A8

[stfassisi]

Calvin was a spin master Read this again... Calvin in his genius managed to combine those two that seem to be contrary, not to say contradictory heresies. For John Calvin, many you might say are Luther’s ideas, for John Calvin in the last analysis who will be saved – those whom God has predestined for salvation. Would anybody else be saved? No. And therefore, basic to John Calvin, is the absolute denial of man’s free will. Now ironically, Calvin writes for pages and pages in his summa, the entries of the Christian religion about the human will. John Calvin is the genius who created the modern world with it’s denial of human freedom

I,m sorry I have not participated more in this thread,I,m on my way to my daughters swim championships and will be back on Sunday.

[adiaireton8]

I read it, but I don't see how the denial of free will is Pelagian or Manichean.

-A8

[Frumanchu]

Seriously, this whole article is pure garbage. I've not seen such an intellectually dishonest, academically bereft polemic in a long time. If one is going to speak so strongly against something they ought to at least be able to accurately describe it.

[Cronos]

No, the Word hasn't changed, our interpretations of it have -- whether right or wrong...

[Cronos]

From what I understand of the various sects, Protestants are those Western groups who have broken away either directly from the Catholic Church, or from those who broke from the Catholic Church or who broke from those who broke from those who broke from The Church, or etc. AND maintain some idea of Apostolic Succession, Trinitarianism etc.

Baptists are "evangelicals" as they reject Apostolic succession, but they are Trinitarians

Unitarians aren't really even Christians as they reject the basic tenets of Christianity and some seem akin to Judaism, while others are so wishy-washy, it's possible to just call them "peace dude" types. Mormons are a different matter.

[Cronos]

I'd also separate Catholic from catholic -- Eastern Orthodox ARE part of the Apostolic Church and so were many Anglican Churches. Political dissent does not validate a church being considered completely separate, but complete 180 degree differences in theology, DO, as in the case of Calvinistic beliefs versus Church beliefs

[adiaireton8]

I wouldn't say that. Some of the things he says are true. But I do think that his criticisms of Calvin seem to be unjustifiable. I suspect that his reasoning would have been clearer if someone had asked him to clarify what he meant.

Honestly, when I read this, it seems as though he was a very old man, not fully aware of the way his words are coming out. I have been around older professors like this; sometimes they aren't aware of the way the words come out, and what they meant to say becomes clear only if you ask them to clarify.

-A8

[redgolum]

I read it, but I don't see how the denial of free will is Pelagian or Manichean.

Because there is a school of thought that everything that is not Latin rite Roman Catholic has some sort of influence from either Pelagius or Mani.

BAC, I would like to know what you are referring to. If there was a movement to "hide" Luther's documents, it must have failed miserably.

[jo kus]

I'd also separate Catholic from catholic -- Eastern Orthodox ARE part of the Apostolic Church and so were many Anglican Churches. Political dissent does not validate a church being considered completely separate, but complete 180 degree differences in theology, DO, as in the case of Calvinistic beliefs versus Church beliefs

While I agree that the Eastern Orthodox are an apostolic church, I do not think that the Anglican are considered apostolic - since they broke from apostolic succession when Henry 8 made himself the visible ruler of the Church over the Pope. Anglican orders are not accepted by the Catholic Church, as far as I know. Thus, I believe the political dissent CAN be considered a means of breaking from apostolicity. It would be interesting to discuss why Anglican orders are not valid, while Orthodox are - considering they both broke from Rome. Perhaps it is because no Orthodox has usurped the Pope's position... Regards

[bornacatholic]

You have given what you consider a valid identification of Catholicism based on your reasonable definition of the term, not any authority you have.

* I gave you a Teaching of the Catholic Church, not my personal opinion.

I have given a definition of Protestantism based on my observation, which is supported by historical context.

* You think you did. But, you didn't. The "reformers" could not agree among themselves as to what were and what were not beliefs one was under a moral obligation to accept. Luther, for instance, condemed those who disagreed with his personal opinions. Like all Heresiarchs, he substituted himself for the Church.

That being true, your persosnal opinions as to what protestantism is is just that, a personal opinion and, therefore, not normative

[bornacatholic]

Lumen Gentium

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth".(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

...9. At all times and in every race God has given welcome to whosoever fears Him and does what is right.(85) God, however, does not make men holy and save them merely as individuals, without bond or link between one another. Rather has it pleased Him to bring men together as one people, a people which acknowledges Him in truth and serves Him in holiness. He therefore chose the race of Israel as a people unto Himself. With it He set up a covenant. Step by step He taught and prepared this people, making known in its history both Himself and the decree of His will and making it holy unto Himself. All these things, however, were done by way of preparation and as a figure of that new and perfect covenant, which was to be ratified in Christ, and of that fuller revelation which was to be given through the Word of God Himself made flesh. "Behold the days shall come saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel, and with the house of Judah . . . I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people . . . For all of them shall know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord.(86) Christ instituted this new covenant, the new testament, that is to say, in His Blood,(87) calling together a people made up of Jew and gentile, making them one, not according to the flesh but in the Spirit. This was to be the new People of God. For those who believe in Christ, who are reborn not from a perishable but from an imperishable seed through the word of the living God,(88) not from the flesh but from water and the Holy Spirit,(89) are finally established as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people . . . who in times past were not a people, but are now the people of God".(90)

That messianic people has Christ for its head, "Who was delivered up for our sins, and rose again for our justification",(91) and now, having won a name which is above all names, reigns in glory in heaven. The state of this people is that of the dignity and freedom of the sons of God, in whose hearts the Holy Spirit dwells as in His temple. Its law is the new commandment to love as Christ loved us.(92) Its end is the kingdom of God, which has been begun by God Himself on earth, and which is to be further extended until it is brought to perfection by Him at the end of time, when Christ, our life,(93) shall appear, and "creation itself will be delivered from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the sons of God".(94) So it is that that messianic people, although it does not actually include all men, and at times may look like a small flock, is nonetheless a lasting and sure seed of unity, hope and salvation for the whole human race. Established by Christ as a communion of life, charity and truth, it is also used by Him as an instrument for the redemption of all, and is sent forth into the whole world as the light of the world and the salt of the earth.(95)... Israel according to the flesh, which wandered as an exile in the desert, was already called the Church of God.(96) So likewise the new Israel which while living in this present age goes in search of a future and abiding city (97) is called the Church of Christ.(98) For He has bought it for Himself with His blood,(99) has filled it with His Spirit and provided it with those means which befit it as a visible and social union. God gathered together as one all those who in faith look upon Jesus as the author of salvation and the source of unity and peace, and established them as the Church that for each and all it may be the visible sacrament of this saving unity. (1*) While it transcends all limits of time and confines of race, the Church is destined to extend to all regions of the earth and so enters into the history of mankind. Moving forward through trial and tribulation, the Church is strengthened by the power of God's grace, which was promised to her by the Lord, so that in the weakness of the flesh she may not waver from perfect fidelity, but remain a bride worthy of her Lord, and moved by the Holy Spirit may never cease to renew herself, until through the Cross she arrives at the light which knows no setting.

....

11. It is through the sacraments and the exercise of the virtues that the sacred nature and organic structure of the priestly community is brought into operation. Incorporated in the Church through baptism, the faithful are destined by the baptismal character for the worship of the Christian religion; reborn as sons of God they must confess before men the faith which they have received from God through the Church (4*). They are more perfectly bound to the Church by the sacrament of Confirmation, and the Holy Spirit endows them with special strength so that they are more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith, both by word and by deed, as true witnesses of Christ (5*). Taking part in the eucharistic sacrifice, which is the fount and apex of the whole Christian life, they offer the Divine Victim to God, and offer themselves along with It.(6*) Thus both by reason of the offering and through Holy Communion all take part in this liturgical service, not indeed, all in the same way but each in that way which is proper to himself. Strengthened in Holy Communion by the Body of Christ, they then manifest in a concrete way that unity of the people of God which is suitably signified and wondrously brought about by this most august sacrament.

... 13. All men are called to belong to the new people of God. Wherefore this people, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and must exist in all ages, so that the decree of God's will may be fulfilled. In the beginning God made human nature one and decreed that all His children, scattered as they were, would finally be gathered together as one. (117) It was for this purpose that God sent His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things,(118) that be might be teacher, king and priest of all, the head of the new and universal people of the sons of God. For this too God sent the Spirit of His Son as Lord and Life- giver. He it is who brings together the whole Church and each and every one of those who believe, and who is the well-spring of their unity in the teaching of the apostles and in fellowship, in the breaking of bread and in prayers.(119)

It follows that though there are many nations there is but one people of God, which takes its citizens from every race, making them citizens of a kingdom which is of a heavenly rather than of an earthly nature. All the faithful, scattered though they be throughout the world, are in communion with each other in the Holy Spirit, and so, he who dwells in Rome knows that the people of India are his members"(9*). Since the kingdom of Christ is not of this world(120) the Church or people of God in establishing that kingdom takes nothing away from the temporal welfare of any people. On the contrary it fosters and takes to itself, insofar as they are good, the ability, riches and customs in which the genius of each people expresses itself. Taking them to itself it purifies, strengthens, elevates and ennobles them. The Church in this is mindful that she must bring together the nations for that king to whom they were given as an inheritance,(121) and to whose city they bring gifts and offerings.(122) This characteristic of universality which adorns the people of God is a gift from the Lord Himself. By reason of it, the Catholic Church strives constantly and with due effect to bring all humanity and all its possessions back to its source In Christ, with Him as its head and united in His Spirit. (10*)

In virtue of this catholicity each individual part contributes through its special gifts to the good of the other parts and of the whole Church. Through the common sharing of gifts and through the common effort to attain fullness in unity, the whole and each of the parts receive increase. Not only, then, is the people of God made up of different peoples but in its inner structure also it is composed of various ranks. This diversity among its members arises either by reason of their duties, as is the case with those who exercise the sacred ministry for the good of their brethren, or by reason of their condition and state of life, as is the case with those many who enter the religious state and, tending toward holiness by a narrower path, stimulate their brethren by their example. Moreover, within the Church particular Churches hold a rightful place; these Churches retain their own traditions, without in any way opposing the primacy of the Chair of Peter, which presides over the whole assembly of charity (11*) and protects legitimate differences, while at the same time assuring that such differences do not hinder unity but rather contribute toward it. Between all the parts of the Church there remains a bond of close communion whereby they share spiritual riches, apostolic workers and temporal resources. For the members of the people of God are called to share these goods in common, and of each of the Churches the words of the Apostle hold good: "According to the gift that each has received, administer it to one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God".(123)

All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation.

14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart."(12*) All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

[bornacatholic]

Unitarians believe in, at most, one God

[bornacatholic]

You are right, brother. Only ones which have preserved Apostolic Sucession and the Eucharist are Churches. Of course, that includes the Orthodox. All the other Christians are really members of communities of believers. They are not members of a Church, properly speaking

[bornacatholic]

FR. Hardon was the one referrring to those writings