The Doctrine of Purgatory

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm ^ | Unknown | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J

[P-Marlowe]

"Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

"I NEVER knew you" is a whole lot different than "I used to know you."

[bornacatholic]

context, context,context results in purgatory being disproven?

LOL wrong, wrong, wrong

You TOTALLY ignored what the Church taught about those men and substituted your own eisegesis anchored in-the-oral-traditions-issuing-from- the-16th-century-schismatics and I am supposed to accept that as authoritative?

I follow the 2000 + year old Church Jesus established as the Pillar and Ground of Truth not a Core-like Schism (Numbers 16) a few hundred years old.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The Handbook of Indulgences

At $13.50, it's a bargain. As one RC reveiwer on Amazon wrote...

"This edition is written in English and is the result of the efforts of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops of the United States, which was first, published in 1988. This is the Third Edition of the Handbook of Indulgences.

This book explains Norms and Indulgences. It the book explains and lists the three general types of Indulged Grants and the other type of Indulgenced Grants. With this book you will learn exactly what is required to receive a partial indulgence or plenary indulgence. All the prayers that grant indulgences are listed."

Lists can be so handy.

[kawaii]

If one accepts that the church has the ability in to bind and loose, then one could argue they have the ability to judge when it might merit to do so in some relation to a monetary fee (the grey area being that if a priest accepted such cash for selfish reasons they'd sort of being auto-matically acting outside of the church).

I'm not convinced the scenerio is impossible though I'd concur it's highly improbably and I can't come up with scenerio where it makes sense...

[GCC Catholic]

The clear truth is that GCC Catholic said not once, but twice that indulgences are currently for sale and can be purchased today through the Roman Catholic church.

No, what I said is that at times it costs money to travel to obtain them, but that there are plenty that can be obtained from home, for absolutely nothing.

Now, so that it is perfectly clear to you and everyone else reading, and so that my own reputation is not tarnished by your misconstruals:

YOU CANNOT BUY INDULGENCES FROM THE CHURCH

And yes blue-duncan, I am doing my work... there is multitasking...

[1000 silverlings]

kind of hard to deny when it's in writing

[kawaii]

ok i never [really] knew your (IE you THOUGHT you knew me, but that wasn't true all along...)

[pjr12345]

The only problem with your listing is that NONE of them refer to purgatory. One has to obtusely torture the Scripture to even come close to the idea (a task that Vicomte13 has affected rather well). The truth is, the closest you guys got to Scriptural support of Purgatory is a vague reference of Judas M. praying for the dead soldiers in a non-inspired book.

I certainly respect your right to believe in Purgatory... and praying to dead people... and turning a blessed woman into a goddess... and Santa Claus... and the Easter Bunny... and the Tooth Fairy...

[blue-duncan]

You forgot these verses. Judas could take up all the indulgences (offerings for sin) he could manage and make all the prayers for them he wanted, and the writer could praise him for whatever he thought was good and honorable, but, in the end it is what God thinks and accepts that count, and these men died in idolatry outside of the mercy of God so Judas was doing a superstitious act since he knew or should have known that his prayers were not being heard nor could they be answered by a just God. This is probably why the book did not make the final cut.

40: Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.
41: So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden;

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Why should I believe that whatever you tell me about your experience is the truth?

Good heavens, AB! If the Protestants on this forum are saying anything to you, it is "Find out for yourself!!!"

And this is because we trust the Holy Spirit to lead all whom God has given Him to repentance, understanding, obedience and faith.

Call your own parish and ask them.

[pjr12345]

The Catholic bible I have says, "Today you will burn off your sins in Purgatory".

[AlbionGirl]

Christ didn't die for the righteous, but for the sinner.

Amen, GC. as the great Hermann Sasse reminds us, The church, that is, Ubi Christus, ibi ecclesia, lives from Repentence.

Only a sinner must repent, not a righteous man, but since there is no such perfectly righteous man, except for Jesus, then all need to repent. The sinner was justified and the publican not. Through humility (as did blessed Abel) he approached God, and declared himself a sinner, and I never got the impression that this was a one time declaration of sin in a mere moment of time.

And as far as the purgatory thing is concerned. We went from it being a suburb of hell, to a suburb of heaven and now a brief nanosecond in time when the dross of sin is refined away through fire (I'm presuming the mechanism remains the same, but who knows?)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Call your local parish and ask if you can purchase an indulgence.

[bornacatholic]

Brother, your reputation can not be harmed when others lie about Christian Doctrine. ANYONE can read the Cathecism online so lies about what The Catholic Church Teaches doesn't injure your reputation. It ruins the one who posted the lies.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

We went from it being a suburb of hell, to a suburb of heaven and now a brief nanosecond in time when the dross of sin is refined away through fire (I'm presuming the mechanism remains the same, but who knows?)

Exactly. The descriptions vary according to mood, apparently.

[bornacatholic]

What is the name of the Bible and what verse reads that way.

[ArrogantBustard]

The Norms for Indulgences are available on lint ... no need to spend your "filthy lucre".

Enjoy ... since it's on-line, we can easily check as to whether it's being quoted accurately. Not that anybody would ever quote anything out of context. That would be dishonest.

[pjr12345]

Yes, indulgences can be obtained.

You could have stopped right there. The RCC idea of "penance" now called "reconciliation", IS a "free" indulgence... except that it requires one's sweat equity to get it. It ain't free if you have to do something for it. Value-for-value is payment.

Last time I checked, the bible was chock full of references of how salvation through Jesus Christ is available to anyone through faith.

Last time I checked, United Airlines was not part of the Catholic Church.

Now you're onto something! I'd like to direct my frequent flyer miles toward my time in Purgatory. Should I go for an upgrade, or should I suffer through until I can afford a higher class of service?

[kawaii]

IMO this comes from the Latins always having had a sort of 'were not worthy but let's try to make up for it with this that and the other thing' mentality. Certainly we eastern Christians concur on the We're definitly not worthy end of things, but find a lot of the trying to make up for that to be a bit extraneous and futile.

Penance for instance in the east is a pretty rare thing for a priest to ask of a confessor (only in extreme instances).

To an extent the East said in a bunch of circumstances (celibacy being another) that the latins were great folks for going all out, but that nothing in doctrine required explicitly anything like what they were doing.

[Nihil Obstat]

because they can still be redeemed at the final judgement (when the damned are thrown into the lake and Satan is thrown into the pit).

where are they until final judgement? Neither Heaven nor Hell?