Posted on 01/29/2007 6:45:51 AM PST by stfassisi
Likewise ... although I'm probably referring to a (slightly) different Church from you. I'd add that the late Fr. Hardon was a very good spokesman for the (my) Church.
Context, context, context. Judas was doing a superstitious act since under the law, the idol worshipers were to be dealt with without mercy. Under the law they were not to be considered part of Israel or under the blessing of the Covenant. None of them had fallen in godliness as the verses say, so what's the point? An exercise in futility is the foundation for a doctrine? If that's the case why not create a doctrine for calling on the dead saints for help like Saul did with Samuel?
38: Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the sabbath there.
39: On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40: Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.
41: So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden;
42: and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43: He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
44: For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
45: But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
Actully if one assumes purgatory exists I'd argue there's a fair amount of support for the notion that a priest could grant a shorter stay there, and porbably in some instances for cash.
Call your local parish and offer to buy one. See what they say.
If you disapprove of what your church is doing, then work to change it. Denying the truth only confuses your opposition as well as your adherents.
The Roman Catholic Church also teaches that this sacrament is made possible because God has treasures stored up in heaven called merits, “Treasury of Merits”. Merits consist of the grace accumulated by Christ’s sacrifice and the meritorious deeds of the old saints in heaven. They claim God charges every person a certain amount of “merits” they will need to earn during their lifetime to either be exempt from purgatory after they die or to work their way out of purgatory . Merits are earned by Catholic’s either working for the Lord in service, through purchase, or by a combination of both. But the objective is to have more merits than demerits before death so eternal life in heaven is possible. Roman Catholic Church professes that Catholic’s can also buy merits for the dead who undoubtedly ended up in Hades/purgatory for lack of enough merits. This, they are told, can help to save the dead ultimately from eternal hell. Roman Catholic Church doctrine teaches that a Catholic’s effort and performance in service to God through the church will give them the opportunity to be free of sin when they die, thus earning the privilege and right to be justified and sanctified for eternal life in heaven. Only the priest seems to know how much eternal security will cost a person financially. Protestants are troubled that the Roman Catholic Church is promoting an unbiblical message to Catholic’s by stating that a person can save themselves or the dead by buying their way into heaven or out of Hades thus overlooking sin and repentance. And that through “works based salvation” they can earn the justification needed to be sanctified and saved by Christ. Protestants are also troubled that the Roman Catholic Church stands between God and a parishioner not allowing them to have a personal relationship with Christ. The majority of Protestants firmly believe and desire that Catholic’s will come to understand and believe that it is , “ …by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not the result of works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2.8-9). Christ earned all the merits needed for His children to be justified and to be given the gift of sanctification and an eternal life of peace and joy with Him, all for His glory."... When a Catholic begins doubting their salvation or feeling guilty about their sinning they simply meet with a priest in private confession, contribute the dollar amount he assesses based upon the type, level, and/or degree of the sin(s), and then the priest prays to God on the person’s behalf which always results in meritorious forgiveness and a full pardon. Throughout life a Catholic can continue to request these sessions as many times as they deem necessary making sure they have more than enough merits to be saved for eternal life.
it does unless you get really vague with what purgatory is (at which point it's pretty well indistiguishable from hell, granted hell is a pretty loaded term aslo; carries a lot of baggage that ain't neccessarily what the church beleives...).
Because your righteousness is already complete.
Therefore if any man be in Christ{present perfect tense], he is [present tense] a new creature: old things are passed away [past tense]; behold, all things are become new [present perfect tense]. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us [past tense] to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us [past tense] the ministry of reconciliation; (2 Corinthians 5:17-18 KJV)
So if you are in Christ, you are reconciled unto him. Now! Not later. Now. There is no future punishment for your sins. No matter how wretched you see yourself, you have been reconciled unto him. You are not defiled because Christ has made you righteous through faith.
It always amazes me how the Roman Catholic Church seems to ignore wholesale the teaching of the Book of Romans. But one cannot really read the Book of Romans and not walk away knowing that if you have faith in Christ that the only thing awaiting you after death is Life. Abundant life. No more suffering and no more tears.
Those who teach Purgatory teach another gospel. Sorry, but it is ANOTHER Gospel.
Prove it.
Cite the Catechism entry which Teaches we save ourselves after death, as you, falsely, charge
Superstitious acts are not good and honourable. Judas acted well and honourably. The very verses you quote destroy your point. Thank you for posting them.
just as soon as you cite those mentions in the councils...
Hey, Aren't you supposed to be doing your homework? I don't want to hear that you blamed a bad grade on us or you will spend time in "homework purgatory" making up time.
Try again ... that sort of drivel doesn't impress me much.
Hint: www DOT vatican DOT va
Yes ... probably.
The probability is ... precisely ... ZERO.
then why do the Orthodox pray for the dead? (not trying to be a wise-guy, seriously interested)
The Handbook of Indulgences available at Amazon.com
Let's call our nearby parishes and see if they'll sell us an indulgence or two.
Shall we?
The logic is irrefutable. IF you can purchase your redemption, THEN you can buy your way to salvation. Hence, the more money you have, the bigger sins you can afford.
The only people I knew who used that rationale were fallen away Catholics. Ar you fallen away?
I'd have to say that I've been elevated.
1. there is nothing biblical in saying because you think you're saved you are.
2. I don't see anything necessarily stopping God from revoking salvation on his own Judgement.
"Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
That is a false statement. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
because they can still be redeemed at the final judgement (when the damned are thrown into the lake and Satan is thrown into the pit).
Why should I believe that whatever you tell me about your experience is the truth?
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