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To: Vicomte13
Also consult 2 Maccabbees for an instance of prayers of atonement for the souls of the dead.

And so we see the crux of the reason for the RCC's addition of the Apocrypha to their bible. If it ain't in Scripture, add more text.

As far as the concept of Gehenna and Hell being the same place. Prior to the revelation of God's plan of salvation through the sacrifice of His Son, it is not likely that anyone would have a separate concept of the two. We know from the parable of Lazarus and the rich man that, indeed, there is a temporary place for souls - and an unbridgeable chasm between the paradisical "bossom of Abraham" and torment.

Your Purgatory would allow this unbridgeable chasm become bridgeable to paradise. However we know that the only bridge is from this temporary torment, Gehenna, to Hell.

The Bible clearly teaches that man has one shot to determine where he will spend his eternal existence. Hebrews 9:7: And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment. There is no second chance, and neither we nor our relatives can buy or otherwise earn our way out of God's justice.

32 posted on 01/29/2007 10:01:58 AM PST by pjr12345
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To: pjr12345
Yeah, you're right. There isn't anything in the new testament referencing Purgatory...

except Mt 5:48...

expect Heb 12:14

except Jam 3:2

except Rev 21:27

except 1 Jn 5:16,17

except Jam 1:14,15

except Mat 12:32

except MT 12:36

except 1 Cor 3:15

except 1 Pet 318-20

except 1 Peter 4:6

except 2 Tim 1:16-18

except 1 Cor 15:29,30

84 posted on 01/29/2007 12:15:11 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: pjr12345

"And so we see the crux of the reason for the RCC's addition of the Apocrypha to their bible. If it ain't in Scripture, add more text.
As far as the concept of Gehenna and Hell being the same place. Prior to the revelation of God's plan of salvation through the sacrifice of His Son, it is not likely that anyone would have a separate concept of the two."

Uh, Hoss, 2 Maccabbees was written about 150 years BEFORE Jesus, so far from being "not likely" that there would be a separate concept of the two, as you suggested, the Jews actually had a pretty clear understanding of atonement for sins in Gehinnom, with prayers for the dead helpful for their atonement and eventually release to Gan Eden. Jesus said "Gehenna". He didn't say "Hell". He didn't say "Purgatory". He said "Gehenna". Want to know what Gehenna MEANS? Ask the Jews, of our time, or even long before Jesus' time, as they wrote in 2 Maccabbees.

Jesus always corrected the Scripture tradition and other Jewish tradition when it needed correcting. He just used Gehenna flat, plain, just like that.

I note here that the CATHOLICS are arguing with me, as I said they would, because I am saying that all of the wedding cakes of logic built up in the middle ages about Purgatory versus Hell, etc., are all unneccessary embellishments: Jesus said Purgatory IS Hell, with just that one word: Gehenna.

And I note the Protestants, like you, are coming out of your chairs because your own traditions say that Purgatory is unneccessary, and it's bloody inconvenient to have Jesus talking about Purgatory (Gehenna) and Hell, and not making the distinction you make in your tradition, which is that hell is forever, but there is no Purgatory at all, and all you have to do is believe in Jesus. Jesus said no such thing. Jesus gave the two commandments and told people to DO, and NOT DO, a lot of things in the love and service of each other. He said that the failure to do these things would get you tossed into Gehenna.
What does this mean?
The Christian who commits adultery - which Jesus said not to do or you'll get tossed into Gehenna - are we to believe, based on Protestant tradition, that Jesus didn't MEAN IT when he said that if you commit adultery you go to Gehenna? That by being crucified and dying nastily and bloodily that was it, the Christian's forgiven and goes to heaven, period, even if he defies Jesus and does all those things that Jesus said not to do or you get thrown into Gehenna?

That is completely preposterous.


182 posted on 01/29/2007 1:40:01 PM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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