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You Tell Us: Does Rome Provide Infallible Certainty About the Gospel?
Alpha and Omega Ministries ^ | James White

Posted on 02/13/2007 1:16:39 PM PST by Gamecock

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To: Alex Murphy

It's relatively simple: if you know that Christ established the Catholic Church as His church, and you ignore that fact, you are not going to be saved. Now, it's arguable how much of that church your garden variety Protestant knows. I'd say not a lot. That would be very different then a properly catechetized Catholic (and that's assuming a lot today, as many, many Catholics are ignorant about the true faith-we're not just battling the devil outside the castle, y'know-so they don't know either). But, for the sake of argument, let's say somebody did know and accepted that it was Christ's church, but some article of faith-divorce and His teaching on it, for instance, was bothersome and they left, well salvation is not going to happen for them.

Really, when you get down to it, the big thing for Protestants is they can't accept the teaching on Divorce.

But how many Protestants have a clue as to the true Catechism of the Catholic Church? Not many, I'd wager. Still, the Second Vatican council teaches Protestants accept much of what Catholics accept. It also teaches Jews and Muslims do, too.

Because I can't walk down the street with a loaded pistol, is the Second Ammendment in the Bill of Rights contradicted?
Or has the state retained rights but with a qualifier?

How much more so would the Holy Spirit be free to act if qualification were necessary, providing you believe the Holy Spirit is here and guiding Christ's Church. I do. V's wife.


21 posted on 02/13/2007 3:48:31 PM PST by ventana
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To: ventana

Whoops, double post. Sorry. V's wife.


22 posted on 02/13/2007 3:49:14 PM PST by ventana
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To: Gamecock

Gamecock

I will find some documents for you. It has to be understood that the Catechism takes excerpts from the Bible and Church documents. Unfortunately if one is not familiar with the entire teaching found in the documents this can leave to major misunderstandings.

I can tell you this for certain. The Church teaches that the only way of Salvation is Jesus Christ. It is not be anyone merits that they are saved. But only by the grace and merits of Jesus Christ. In some instances those who are ignorant of the Gospel may be saved through Jesus Christ. However the risk of damnation to the soul that does not know Jesus Christ it too great for the Church to ever abandon the great commission.


23 posted on 02/13/2007 4:23:26 PM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Gamecock

Dear Gamecock

I am providing you links to two Vatican documents that may help. The first is DEI VERBUM POPE PAUL VI and can be found at http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

The second is "DOMINUS IESUS" by then Cardinal Ratzinger
it can be found at
"DOMINUS IESUS"
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Sorry for the length of the links. I did think it was better for you to read the documents in their entirity and reach your own conclusions.

God bless you.


24 posted on 02/13/2007 4:58:44 PM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Gamecock
So are you new to Freerepublic? Because I am sure this question as been asked and answered everyday on at least one thread about the Catholic Church.
25 posted on 02/13/2007 5:13:53 PM PST by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: Gamecock

It's really not that complicated. The author falsely presumes that being involved in the plan of salvation translates into being saved. It does not.

Christ is necessary for salvation. Period. The church is the only means of that salvation revealed to mankind. Muslims who are devout in their faith (who are quite a different bunch than the death cult) demonstrate a spiritual longing which IS part of the plan of salvation. The lies of Islam, however, are not.

Are all those who die outside the body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church, damned to salvation? Protestantism may be merely a heresy, not an apostasy; there is be hope that Protestants are saved through extraordinary graces, for surely God hears the earnest prayers of those who seek him but are "invinceably ignorant."

Likewise, Muslims know of Jesus, but have believed many lies about him. And, yet, it nay be that the Muslim who strives for Godliness, though his mind holds false notions, has a heart which discerns the truth of who Jesus is, and may call to him in a desperate plea for mercy and righteousness.

Finally, we can hold hope beyond hope that somehow those who die ignorant of the good news may somehow be saved. But all Christians must strive to assist them in their quest to enkindle their love of Christ. To abdicate one's commission to rescue these from Hell is to presume apon God's mercy, which is, itself, grave sin.

(Presuming apon mercy is sinning with the presumption that God will spare us punishment anyway; it is not the same as having confidence in God's mercy, which is to contritely expect that sins will be forgiven.)


26 posted on 02/13/2007 7:22:20 PM PST by dangus
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To: Gamecock

I'd say that "only by grace through faith only on account of Christ only" is pretty clear.

None of that clarity above. It's a crazy quilt of committee decisions.


27 posted on 02/13/2007 8:37:05 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: Gamecock
The CCC is a bad catechism and is not infallible. It may not teach blatant error exactly, but it is written in an ambiguous way that one can read whatever meaning they want out of it.

For instance, in the example given in the article, "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;" doesn't say Muslims can be saved as Muslims, but someone reading that might be mislead to believe that.

The Council of Florence statement is an infallible statement, and there are many other infallible statements just like it. Stick with the Catechism of Trent, the Baltimore Catechism, St Thomas Aquinas Catechism...

28 posted on 02/13/2007 8:54:32 PM PST by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Gamecock; All
P.S.

If you want to know why things seem so dang confusing now Pope St. Pius X spelled it all out clearly in this:

PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS

back when things were written clearly.

29 posted on 02/13/2007 9:09:42 PM PST by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Gamecock

The grace of God.


30 posted on 02/13/2007 9:19:23 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Theoden

you type fast. ;-)


31 posted on 02/13/2007 10:08:08 PM PST by phatus maximus (John 6:29...Learn it, love it, live it...)
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To: escapefromboston
***So are you new to Freerepublic?***

Is that a rhetorical question? If it's not all you have to do is park your mouse over my name and it will tell you how long I've been a member.


***I am sure this question as been asked and answered everyday on at least one thread about the Catholic Church.***

Not in the context of the quoted citations.
32 posted on 02/14/2007 2:22:52 AM PST by Gamecock (Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei)
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To: Terabitten

No I haven't.

What's it about?


33 posted on 02/14/2007 2:23:53 AM PST by Gamecock (Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei)
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To: Gamecock
I believe that the following paragraphs from the Catechism answer your question.

Many Christians have in fact believed that those who do not know Christ during their earthly lives are surely damned. However, there has long been a hope that those who do not, through no fault of their own, may somehow experience Christ's mercy. This does not mean that anyone should willfully ignore Christ.

Catechism of the Catholic Church with paragraph number ranges

(paragraph)1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

(paragraph)846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

34 posted on 02/14/2007 2:55:19 AM PST by iowamark
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To: phatus maximus

LOL, call it zeal!


35 posted on 02/14/2007 3:26:50 AM PST by Theoden ("Christianus ille Victor")
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To: dangus; Gamecock
Are all those who die outside the body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church, damned to salvation?

Syllabus of Errors condemned by Pope Pius IX:

"15)Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true."
Condemned

"16)Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation."
Condemned

"17)Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ."
Condemned

"18)Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church." Condemned

36 posted on 02/14/2007 3:30:17 AM PST by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Gamecock

You cannot be serious!!! The Church does NOT teach that everybody IS saved......they teach that everybody CAN be saved!


37 posted on 02/14/2007 3:31:42 AM PST by Suzy Quzy
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To: joyspring777

It shouldn't matter what the Catholic Church believes about who;s going to heaven unless you are a Catholic.


38 posted on 02/14/2007 3:32:59 AM PST by Suzy Quzy
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To: 1000 silverlings

This stuff is from the OLD Pope, JPII, not Benedict.


39 posted on 02/14/2007 3:35:38 AM PST by Suzy Quzy
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To: Gamecock
Could one of my Catholic FRiends please tell me exactly what the Catholic church believes is required for salvation?

Here's a brief catechism that speaks plainly with no gobblety gook:

Questions and Answers on Salvation

40 posted on 02/14/2007 3:39:04 AM PST by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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