Posted on 02/13/2007 1:16:39 PM PST by Gamecock
The Council of Florence, the 17th Ecumenical (and hence “infallible”) Council of the Roman Catholic Church, said the following:
It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (Denzinger 714).
Yet, section 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1993) says:
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
In a similar way the Pope seemed to be in line with section 841 when he said,
VATICAN CITY, SEP 9, 1998 (VIS) - At today's Wednesday general audience in St. Peter's Square, the Pope spoke on the theme of The Spirit of God and the 'Seeds of Truth' in non-Christian Religions. The 'seeds of truth', said John Paul II, are 'the effect of the Spirit of truth operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body', the wind 'which blows where it wills'. The Holy Father explained that in all authentic religious experiences, the most characteristic manifestation is prayer. ... Every true prayer is inspired by the Holy Spirit, Who is mysteriously present in the heart of every person. Through the practice of what is good in their own religious traditions, and following the dictates of their consciences, members of other religions positively respond to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even though they may not recognize Him as their Savior. The attitude of the Church and of individual Christians with regard to other religions is characterized by sincere respect, deep kindness, and also, where it is possible and appropriate, cordial collaboration. This does not mean forgetting that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator and Savior of the human race. Nor does it imply lessening the missionary effort to which we have an obligation, in obedience to the command of the Risen Lord: 'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit'. This attitude of respect and dialogue, concluded John Paul II, represents a due recognition of the 'seeds of the Word' and of the 'groans of the Spirit'. It also prepares the proclamation of the Gospel in awaiting the time when the Lord shows his mercy.
Yet, scarcely two years later, we encounter a Papal encyclical Dominus Iesus, which reads in part,
4. The Church's constant missionary proclamation is endangered today by relativistic theories which seek to justify religious pluralism, not only de facto but also de iure (or in principle). As a consequence, it is held that certain truths have been superseded; for example, the definitive and complete character of the revelation of Jesus Christ, the nature of Christian faith as compared with that of belief in other religions, the inspired nature of the books of Sacred Scripture, the personal unity between the Eternal Word and Jesus of Nazareth, the unity of the economy of the Incarnate Word and the Holy Spirit, the unicity and salvific universality of the mystery of Jesus Christ, the universal salvific mediation of the Church, the inseparability -- while recognizing the distinction -- of the kingdom of God, the kingdom of Christ, and the Church, and the subsistence of the one Church of Christ in the Catholic Church.
5. As a remedy for this relativistic mentality, which is becoming ever more common, it is necessary above all to reassert the definitive and complete character of the revelation of Jesus Christ. In fact, it must be firmly believed that, in the mystery of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son of God, who is “the way, the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6), the full revelation of divine truth is given: “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him” (Mt 11:27); “No one has ever seen God; God the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has revealed him” (Jn
1:18); “For in Christ the whole fullness of divinity dwells in bodily form” (Col 2:9-10).
For this reason, the distinction between theological faith and belief in the other religions, must be firmly held. If faith is the acceptance in grace of revealed truth, which “makes it possible to penetrate the mystery in a way that allows us to understand it coherently”, then belief, in the other religions, is that sum of experience and thought that constitutes the human treasury of wisdom and religious aspiration, which man in his search for truth has conceived and acted upon in his relationship to God and the Absolute.
This distinction is not always borne in mind in current theological reflection. Thus, theological faith (the acceptance of the truth revealed by the One and Triune God) is often identified with belief in other religions, which is religious experience still in search of the absolute truth and still lacking assent to God who reveals himself. This is one of the reasons why the differences between Christianity and the other religions tend to be reduced at times to the point of disappearance.
Hence, those solutions that propose a salvific action of God beyond the unique mediation of Christ would be contrary to Christian and Catholic faith.
But, only a few months later, we get this:
GENERAL AUDIENCE
Wednesday 6 December 2000Dear Brothers and Sisters,
The theme of our General Audiences during this Great Jubilee Year has been the glory of the Trinity, and today we ask what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world. In essence, we are called to be converted and to believe in the Gospel. We are to accept the Kingdom of God in our hearts, and to bear witness to it by word and deed. The Kingdom indicates the loving presence and activity of God in the world, and should be a source of serenity and confidence for our lives. The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes - the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life - will enter God’s Kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his Church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this Kingdom. In the Lord’s prayer we say: "Thy Kingdom come"; may this be the hope that sustains and inspires our Christian life and work.
Do you really think Rome clarifies the issues of the gospel, or does she muddle them?
It's relatively simple: if you know that Christ established the Catholic Church as His church, and you ignore that fact, you are not going to be saved. Now, it's arguable how much of that church your garden variety Protestant knows. I'd say not a lot. That would be very different then a properly catechetized Catholic (and that's assuming a lot today, as many, many Catholics are ignorant about the true faith-we're not just battling the devil outside the castle, y'know-so they don't know either). But, for the sake of argument, let's say somebody did know and accepted that it was Christ's church, but some article of faith-divorce and His teaching on it, for instance, was bothersome and they left, well salvation is not going to happen for them.
Really, when you get down to it, the big thing for Protestants is they can't accept the teaching on Divorce.
But how many Protestants have a clue as to the true Catechism of the Catholic Church? Not many, I'd wager. Still, the Second Vatican council teaches Protestants accept much of what Catholics accept. It also teaches Jews and Muslims do, too.
Because I can't walk down the street with a loaded pistol, is the Second Ammendment in the Bill of Rights contradicted?
Or has the state retained rights but with a qualifier?
How much more so would the Holy Spirit be free to act if qualification were necessary, providing you believe the Holy Spirit is here and guiding Christ's Church. I do. V's wife.
Whoops, double post. Sorry. V's wife.
Gamecock
I will find some documents for you. It has to be understood that the Catechism takes excerpts from the Bible and Church documents. Unfortunately if one is not familiar with the entire teaching found in the documents this can leave to major misunderstandings.
I can tell you this for certain. The Church teaches that the only way of Salvation is Jesus Christ. It is not be anyone merits that they are saved. But only by the grace and merits of Jesus Christ. In some instances those who are ignorant of the Gospel may be saved through Jesus Christ. However the risk of damnation to the soul that does not know Jesus Christ it too great for the Church to ever abandon the great commission.
Dear Gamecock
I am providing you links to two Vatican documents that may help. The first is DEI VERBUM POPE PAUL VI and can be found at http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html
The second is "DOMINUS IESUS" by then Cardinal Ratzinger
it can be found at
"DOMINUS IESUS"
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
Sorry for the length of the links. I did think it was better for you to read the documents in their entirity and reach your own conclusions.
God bless you.
It's really not that complicated. The author falsely presumes that being involved in the plan of salvation translates into being saved. It does not.
Christ is necessary for salvation. Period. The church is the only means of that salvation revealed to mankind. Muslims who are devout in their faith (who are quite a different bunch than the death cult) demonstrate a spiritual longing which IS part of the plan of salvation. The lies of Islam, however, are not.
Are all those who die outside the body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church, damned to salvation? Protestantism may be merely a heresy, not an apostasy; there is be hope that Protestants are saved through extraordinary graces, for surely God hears the earnest prayers of those who seek him but are "invinceably ignorant."
Likewise, Muslims know of Jesus, but have believed many lies about him. And, yet, it nay be that the Muslim who strives for Godliness, though his mind holds false notions, has a heart which discerns the truth of who Jesus is, and may call to him in a desperate plea for mercy and righteousness.
Finally, we can hold hope beyond hope that somehow those who die ignorant of the good news may somehow be saved. But all Christians must strive to assist them in their quest to enkindle their love of Christ. To abdicate one's commission to rescue these from Hell is to presume apon God's mercy, which is, itself, grave sin.
(Presuming apon mercy is sinning with the presumption that God will spare us punishment anyway; it is not the same as having confidence in God's mercy, which is to contritely expect that sins will be forgiven.)
I'd say that "only by grace through faith only on account of Christ only" is pretty clear.
None of that clarity above. It's a crazy quilt of committee decisions.
For instance, in the example given in the article, "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;" doesn't say Muslims can be saved as Muslims, but someone reading that might be mislead to believe that.
The Council of Florence statement is an infallible statement, and there are many other infallible statements just like it. Stick with the Catechism of Trent, the Baltimore Catechism, St Thomas Aquinas Catechism...
If you want to know why things seem so dang confusing now Pope St. Pius X spelled it all out clearly in this:
back when things were written clearly.
The grace of God.
you type fast. ;-)
No I haven't.
What's it about?
Many Christians have in fact believed that those who do not know Christ during their earthly lives are surely damned. However, there has long been a hope that those who do not, through no fault of their own, may somehow experience Christ's mercy. This does not mean that anyone should willfully ignore Christ.
Catechism of the Catholic Church with paragraph number ranges
(paragraph)1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
(paragraph)846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
LOL, call it zeal!
Syllabus of Errors condemned by Pope Pius IX:
"15)Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true."
Condemned
"16)Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation."
Condemned
"17)Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ."
Condemned
"18)Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church." Condemned
You cannot be serious!!! The Church does NOT teach that everybody IS saved......they teach that everybody CAN be saved!
It shouldn't matter what the Catholic Church believes about who;s going to heaven unless you are a Catholic.
This stuff is from the OLD Pope, JPII, not Benedict.
Here's a brief catechism that speaks plainly with no gobblety gook:
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