Posted on 04/09/2007 10:55:31 PM PDT by Macoraba
The Holy Spirit speaking through Mary says that all generations will call her blessed.
Luke 1:48. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
I do not see how a person can call themselves a Christian and not call Mary "Blessed"!
It's a sign of those who truly believe in the Word of God; that they will call her "Blessed"!
She takes nothing away from her Son.
Like if someone were to say to President George W. Bush that his mother Barbara was a fine woman would he become angry and say "Why are you insulting me?". No! On the contrary he would be honored.
“Oh puh_leeez show me one place where I have said ‘mother of Jesus’s human nature’. You are putting words in there that I have never stated. I have stated it as the Bible does, ‘mother of Jesus’ period.”
Then you shouldn’t have a problem with us...we are not saying anything the bible doesn’t say.
The problem seems to be with your concept of the Trinity and the personhood of Christ.
Jesus Christ is God, and Mary is His mother.
Is Jesus God or isn't He?
“Saying God implies all three. “
Only according to you it does.
You won’t find catholics who believe this and repeatedly accusing them of this doesn’t make it true.
You will find direct contradiction of this notion of yours in the catechism.
But please...don’t allow fact to get in the way of your bias.
It is not my concept of Trinity that has the problem with the statement.
When a person prays to Mary, it is in request for her prayers for sinners. Have you ever asked your Mom to pray for you? Or your friends? If they can pray for you, then why cannot Jesus’s Mother pray for us? Or do you think she is dead? Her spirit is alive just as all the spirits of the dead who are in Christ are alive. We Catholics call this the Communion of Saints.
Second - Jesus’s first public miracle was at the wedding in Cana in Galilee. He performed the miracle because his Mother told him they were out of wine for the guests. This despite the fact the He said His time had not yet come. Still, he listened to his mother! We should understand that Jesus’s love for his earthly mother was great indeed, and we should respect and honor her. It takes nothing away from Jesus or God to honor her or to ask her for prayers.
“It is not my concept of Trinity that has the problem with the statement.”
When you make the claim that referring to Jesus as God necessarily means we are referring to all three persons of the Trinity - then yes, that is exactly the impression I am getting.
Three separate persons, one God.
It can make the brain cramp, but there it is.
Yes He is, but there are three 'persons' that make up God and Mary is only Mother to one of them. This is like saying I created '2' and '4' only. '2' and '4' are even numbers, therefore I created 'even numbers'. Yes, technically I did create even numbers, but the statement wrongly implies I created all even numbers. Technically, it is not incorrect, but it is misleading.
**Has anyone ever admitted to you that, yes, indeed they worship Mary?**
I am sure others have responded to you by now. We do not “worship” Mary, the Blessed Virgin, but we do venerate her and ask her to pray for us.
After all, even her Son, at the wedding of Cana, chose to manifest himself at her request — “They are out of wine.”
“Yes He is, but there are three ‘persons’ that make up God and Mary is only Mother to one of them”
You have just agreed with the catholic position.
“This is like saying I created ‘2’ and ‘4’ only. ‘2’ and ‘4’ are even numbers, therefore I created ‘even numbers’”
No...this isn’t what is being said at all...but it shows that the human mind has great difficulty understanding something that only God can understand.
We cannot fully understand the concept because we are not God and never will be.
You would have to be God to fully understand the concept of Holy Trinity.
We will spend our eternity with God someday, and even then I wonder if we will ever fully understand it.
“Technically, it is not incorrect, but it is misleading.”
once again you agree that “technically” it is correct.
You still have the opinion it is misleading, which of course we catholic disagree with.
But somehow I get the feeling that tomorrow there will be another thread about Mary and there will be a post from you asking the exact same question as if you never received the exact same responses from catholics over this past week.
I am picking at you about this because it is very common for non-catholics to hold onto their misconceptions and bias even after they have been shown to be wrong.
You have a bias that catholics think Mary is mother of the Holy Trinity. You are wrong about this.
That is just a dishonest backhanded way of calling others heretics!
Because I have not been shown to be wrong. Just because I granted that it is not technically wrong to say, I still think it is misleading and still think it is best to stick with how the Bible says it, which is far more percise.
Uhhh, no. God the Father is completely and totally God. God the Son is completely and totally God. God the Holy Spirit is completely and totally God. The Three Persons do not "make up" God. The Three Persons are the One God.
Do you honestly believe that Catholics believe the Mary is the mother of God the Father? If that were the case then Mary would be the creator and not God.
Just because I granted that it is not technically wrong to say, I still think it is misleading and still think it is best to stick with how the Bible says it,
You are arguing semantics.
which is far more percise.
I think you mean precise. ; )
The New Testament continuously insists that Jesus Christ is God:
He was God before he was born in the flesh: "In the beginning was the Word ... and the Word was God" (John 1:1).
After his human birth he continued to be God. On earth, Jesus forgave sins (Mark 2:5-7), something only God can do. He claimed divinity (John 8:58) and thus equality with God (John 10:28-30). These claims led to charges of blasphemy (Matthew 26:63-66) and death by crucifixion.
After his resurrection, he continues to be God. Thomas called the risen Jesus "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).
The author of Hebrews, quoting Psalm 104, says of Jesus, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever" (Hebrews 1:8).
It is only misleading to those willing to make the stretch for the sake of sowing an argument. I'm not going to argue with you. Every Catholic who refers to Mary as the Mother of God knows exactly what he's saying.
I think that a great many of us Protestants understand this also, but for the sake of argument pretend not to.
I know of a Lutheran parish that's as devoted to Mary as my own Catholic parish is.
Gumdrop: “When a person prays to Mary, it is in request for her prayers for sinners....Her spirit is alive just as all the spirits of the dead who are in Christ are alive. We Catholics call this the Communion of Saints.”
I see no problem with Mary as a highly regarded historical character. I just don’t see why she is singled out as one of the primary intercessors to Christ. It seems that the “Saints” to which the Roman Catholics pray are focused on new testament (or later) persons. Why don’t the Roman Catholics pray to Abraham, Sarah, Moses, or Noah? Even Paul claimed the faith of these were among the greatest.
What is the benchmark for being prayed to? Is there some sort of qualification these “saints” have earned that seperate them from other great biblical characters???
Who is misled? If it's misleading, then there must be somebody misled by it. I know of no person who thinks that Mary is the Mother of the Father or of the Holy Spirit. Do you? If you don't, then it would seem that neither of us knows anybody who is misled by this statement. So we have to wonder if it might be misleading to call the statement misleading.
The Trinitarian problem you seem to have is that you seem to think that God has parts and Jesus is only part of God. But God has no parts. Whatever persons or hypostases are, they aren't parts. So The Son is God, and if Jesus is the Son, and Mary is the Mother of Jesus, then she is the mother of God. And we know of no one misled by this. No harm, no foul. Time for a new subject. We get that you don't like it and we get that you don't want to like it.
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