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Locked on 06/15/2007 1:02:32 PM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
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Posted on 06/13/2007 4:39:26 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary
Good title.
And now, how about the absolute primacy of Christ being thoroughly observed by His Bride?
Apparently I can’t follow your logic, and so we’re both wasting each others’ time.
Have a good evening. God Bless.
The article is merely a jumping off point for a discussion. Nobody can control where it goes from there. And you certainly don't have the authority to control the discussion. This is your first post on this thread.
If you don't like how it has progressed, then make like a tree and leave.
However, you are ignoring that the poster and the article's author have both asked to return to the thread's topic.
You accused a freeper of threadjacking. You asked him to leave. You were out of line. Unless the thread is listed as a "Caucus" thread, the thread is free to go wherever God or the RM allows it to go.
In this particular case there is a side issue which has arisen given the fact that the poster and the author both have a hidden agenda which has been uncovered. They are actively campaigning for Mary to be dogmatically declared "co-Redemtrix" with Christ. The current discussion is a cross-over between the Primacy of Christ and the effort to elevate Mary's role in redemption to a co-equal status with Christ.
So if you don't like it, then you should leave instead of asking those who are participating in the discussion to leave.
If the author and the original poster do not like the way the thread ended up, then they can contact the religion moderator and have the thread removed.
Ping to 122. I’m finished with this thread, as it is no longer edifying to me, and I highly doubt it can be edifying to anyone else.
I’ll have to be quick, but Bl. John Duns Scotus and what is called the Franciscan thesis of the absolute primacy of Christ does not deny that Jesus Christ came to redeem sinners. The position of the absolute primacy of Christ maintains that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end of all creation even if Adam had not sinned. Because of sin He came as Redeemer; but that was not the primary, let alone exclusive reason for His coming. Hope that helps.
unspun—I’m not sure exactly what you are getting at? But I’ll take a shot at responding. Jesus Christ must reign in the Church, His Bride, as the Head and should reign in the hearts of all. His is the primacy, and none other.
God bless you all...
Indeed. And may that be in practice, uneclipsed whatsoever, as well as in belief.
Logic:
IF Mary is God’s Mother, THEN Mary must BE God(des). Ergo God is not God.
IF Mary gave her permission to allow Christ to become the atoning sacrifice for the sins of men, THEN Mary could have withheld that permission. Ergo Mary is Redeemer, not Christ.
IF one venerates Mary, THEN one worships something other than God. Ergo one is an idol worshipper.
IF the Bible says Black and a person says White, THEN the person is a false teacher. Ergo the RCC is filled with false teachers.
IF one reads the Bible, and one studies extra-biblical teachings, THEN one must “choose this day who you will serve”. Ergo those choosing the Bible have hope in Truth, those choosing something else do not.
Consequently, this is the view I hold. It also has implications for the Blessed Virgin as well
He brings in the blessed virgin, he opened the doorin the discussion, so just let us discuss how she affects the primacy of Christ. Let the author defend his work. I think you also have to have a badge if you are the thread police.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Mary has zip, nada, to do either with Christ or with us.
Pings to 122 and 125. I’m done discussing this with either of you. Please don’t ping me again concerning this thread.
“see the Crucifixion accounts where Mary is at the foot of the Cross praying for her Son”
There is absolutely no scripture to support your statement that Mary is praying at the foot of the cross. Mary is listed as a spectator to the crucifixion along with many women followers of Jesus.
Luke 2:34-35, “And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
There is nothing in that scripture that would lead a teenager, as Mary was, to believe Jesus would be crucified for the sins of the people. Jews were looking for a political messiah, a king, not a suffering savior. Even the disciples who were with Him during His ministry, up to the end did not understand He had to die. What Mary was told by shepherds and angels was that she would bare a King. That’s what she pondered for that’s all that was told to her.
What Gabriel announced to Mary was that she would conceive and bear a Son, the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy. He did not ask if she wanted the job, he said she would conceive. It was a fact, determined before the foundation of the world that she would conceive. Her only question was how it was going to be accomplished and when that was explained to her, she was satisfied.
“If Mary didnt have an idea of what was to be expected of her from the Angel, her fiat would not have been valid.”
The only thing Mary understood from the angel was that she would bear a man child, the Son of God, that was her “fiat”, her decree.
http://www.fisheaters.com/mediatordei.html
Participating in mass is necessary for salvation. Christ did not finish His work on Calvary, humans must do it for Him. The mass is just another work in order to be saved
77. This purchase, however, does not immediately have its full effect; since Christ, after redeeming the world at the lavish cost of His own blood, still must come into complete possession of the souls of men. Wherefore, that the redemption and salvation of each person and of future generations unto the end of time may be effectively accomplished, and be acceptable to God, it is necessary that-men should individually come into vital contact with the sacrifice of the cross, so that the merits, which flow from it, should be imparted to them. In a certain sense it can be said that on Calvary Christ built a font of purification and salvation which He filled with the blood He shed; but if men do not bathe in it and there wash away the stains of their iniquities, they can never be purified and saved.
It would do well for the people on this thread to actually read what is written instead of twisting it to say things that were not said in the first place and then attacking the misrepresentation.
Well I have just read Pius xii on the subject and it's his opinion that you do. Mary has power over Christ and offers up the divine victim. The church participates in the offering.
For a thread on the "primacy" of Christ, there appears to be little support for your view. All I come away with, after reading the topics, and then doing research, is that it appears in Catholic theology that Christ has little power, why He couldn't even save anyone atthe cross apparently, other than those who were physically there at the time. Now, all down thru the ages, one must be at a re-enactment of this event in orderto be saved.
And deny it if you must, but Mary is the one represented with the power. If Christ was who He said He was, and did what He came to do, then His work was accomplished, and He is resurrected to glory. If He did not do what He came to do, then He was an imposter. Which is it?
It's your thread, tell us
If a Priest can duplicate what Christ did on the Cross and offer a non-bloody sacrifice in Christ's place, it removes the preemience of Christ.
Sorry that you have a hard time understanding that.
NOW, THAT SAID: This has nothing to do with the original post. Please quit threadjacking.
So, no one is hijacking the thread.
The Roman Catholic Church places its priests (performing the Mass) and Mary on the same level with Christ, making Christ less then preeminent.
I understand that perfectly fine, and if that were what was happening, I'd have as much trouble with it as you do. Acting "in the person of Christ" is not the same as being able to do what Christ did on the Cross, nor is it offering anything "in Christ's place."
Now, as I've told the others in 122, 125, and 132, please do not ping me concerning this thread again.
Just who and what is this "Sacred Heart"??? Where do you find that in scripture??? Isn't it true that the worship of this "Sacred Heart" came out of fringe cults of Catholic mystics, and was propagated primarily by the Jesuits.
If we take your statement literally, then are we to assume that you believe that this Jesuit Jesus or the "Sacred Heart" of this Jesuit Jesus is predestined, according to you, to the height of Glory???
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