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Posted on 06/13/2007 4:39:26 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary
Franciscan (Scotistic) Thesis: Absolute Primacy Of Christ -Jesus Christ was absolutely predestined for grace and glory in His Incarnation quite apart from any question of sin. The elect (men and angels) were chosen and predestined in Him by an eternal decree. And this before the universe had been created.
Supporters of this:
-St. Maximus the Confessor: “This [the Incarnation] is that great and hidden mystery. This is the blessed end for which all things were created. This is the divine purpose foreknown before the beginning of creation… Really, it was for the sake of Christ, that is the mystery of Christ, that all the ages and all the things of all the ages themselves received the beginning and end of existence in Christ.”
-St. Francis De Sales: The primary reason for the Incarnation was that God “might communicate Himself” outside Himself (ad extra). From all eternity He saw that the most excellent way to do this was in “uniting Himself to some created nature, in such sort that the creature might be engrafted and implanted in the divinity, and become one single Person with it.” Thus God willed the Incarnation. Through Christ and “for His sake” God willed to pour out His goodness on other creatures thus choosing to “create men and angels to accompany His Son, to participate in His grace and glory, to adore and praise Him forever.”
-St. Albert the Great: In his commentary on the Sentences he writes, “to the extent that I can offer my opinion, I believe that the Son of God would have become man even if there had been no sin… Nevertheless, on this subject I say nothing in a definitive manner; but I believe that what I said is more in harmony with the piety of faith.”
Bl. John Duns Scotus:
The absolute primacy of Christ begins with God’s plan. So we can say that it begins from above, and not from below (from man). It begins with God. Scotus seeks to see the created world form God’s point of view. And God, he would hold, does not subordinate His eternal decrees to man’s temporal situation. God rather in His goodness, freely wills to create the universe according to a fixed plan.
The key note to Scotus’ system is the word "predestination"
Note the distinction again from a Calvinist predestination: God has a fixed plan for creation, but man is still free. For Scotus, the origin of all creation rests on predestination. Scotus defines Predestination as "An act of divine will which destines (chooses or elects) an intellectual creature to grace and glory." Predestination is characterized by 2 activities:
1) eternal: the eternal act outside of time. This refers to the intention of God for all eternity. This specifically refers to the activity of "determining the end." Meaning determining the goal or purpose or final cause of all of God’s activity outside of Himself.
2) temporal: " The Execution of His foreseen plan in time." This means the gradual realization of His eternal plan in time.
-Therefore, we have a single plan of predestination with 2 activities that bring it about. Intention and execution. The intention which God freely chooses from eternity always precedes the execution of His intention in time. The example used by Scotists is that of a sculptor. First the artist sees in his mind a life-size wooden statue (say, of Sacred Heart of Jesus) and he wants to carve this wooden statue.
The first thing the sculptor does is have an intention to carve the statue. Now to execute that intention, he obtains a large chunk of wood. He brings it to a studio and begins to carve. What we can see in this process is that the intention is first and the execution is second, and in a certain sense we can say that the execution (the chunk of wood) is less perfect compared to what the final statue would be (the more perfect). But the sculptor throughout the process sees the Sacred Heart of Jesus in that wood. That intention is what moves the execution of the plan along. So in the sculptors activity of intention, the perfect is willed and is seen first. Whereas, in the activity of execution, he begins with the less perfect and gradually moves to the perfect.
Applying this to subject of primacy of Christ: God is the divine artist. The first thing he does is wills and predestines the Most sacred Heart of Jesus to the maximum grace and glory as possible. This maximum grace in glory is by virtue of the personal union that the human heart of Jesus will have with the eternal Word in the Incarnation. This happens through the hypostatic union. Now through the activity of the intention God wills the end of all creation; The goal and height of all creation: Jesus Christ.
To get to this goal of all creation, God sets his plan in motion (the execution), with the creation of the universe. God moves from the lesser perfect to the most perfect realization of his eternal decree. (Chunk of wood to the actual statue). That’s why he starts with creation. The most perfect of his eternal decree is the grace and glory of Jesus Christ. (Scotus says that Scripture supports this. Jesus is the high point of creation.) Thus the Sacred Heart of Jesus is the first created being willed by God and was done so for all eternity and the Sacred Heart is predestined to the height of Glory. The Sacred Heart is the goal of all creation. What God seeks to realize in the fullness of time (Gal 4:4). So this eternal intention of God and the temporal execution towards this end, is what is fixed by predestination. Secondly, all other rational creatures are predestined in, thru, and for Jesus Christ.
The predestination is the positive act of the divine will which destines a rational creature to grace and glory. This refers first to Jesus Christ in his humanity, and also to all the saints and angels.
For Scotus predestination is absolute, not relative, meaning that it is not relative to any created need or circumstance. Rather it is based on God’s own intrinsic goodness and moving creatures to himself for the optimum grace and glory.
Christ was willed (Incarnation) before the foundation of the world (cf. Eph. 1:4). Jesus is first of all willed for His own sake and not first for man’s sake. In fact, men and angels are created for Him and He for God (cf. I Cor. 3:23). Jesus could not be predestined to grace and glory on account of sin....even though he will conquer sin in his mercy. Thus the Incarnation is the supreme work of God ad extra (outside of Himself) and it is not occasioned by sin. This predestination of Christ, of men, and of angels is one simultaneous act. So God destines all of the elect to grace and glory in Jesus Christ.
In Scotus’s Ordinatio he says:
1) God predestines Christ (in His humanity), saints and angels to glory before any foreseen sin.
2) Predestination is absolute in the intention of God and not based on future needs or sins of creatures.
3) Thirdly that Christ’s absolute predestination could not be "occasioned by sin" or even for the sake of men and angels.
a) After willing the Trinity, the first thing that God wills is the humanity of Jesus.
b) You don’t predestine the height of created glory based on the fall of an inferior creature.
Consequently, this is the view I hold. It also has implications for the Blessed Virgin as well, which I will post on at a later time.
In the meantime, Tom over at Disputations has started a discussion on the subject... Make sure you check out the discussion in the combox. You will find that Fr. Maximilian Mary Dean, F.I. has joined the discussion. Note what he says, for he wrote the book on this subject......literally! It's called A Primer on the Absolute Primacy of Christ.
Be sure to check out Fr. Maximilian's vlog series on this subject at AirMaria.com.
by Danny Garland Jr. at Irish-Catholic and Dangerous
Since this poster does not want to be posted to again, I will post the reply to all.
The Priest is duplicating the work of Christ in a non-bloody way.
Thus, Christ's work on the Cross was not a complete one and the Mass completes it.
The Mass is part of the Propitiation process and as is necessary as was Christ's death on the Cross.
That is exactly what Trent said was happening.
Roman Catholics hate to admit what their church teaches.
Across the centuries enough gobbetty gook has been authored to allow the RCC to defend any position it chooses. They’ve amassed so much extra-biblical writings from their “fathers”, dogma, doctrine, and catechisms that they can move their “beliefs” in any direction they wish and still claim “Tradition”.
The defenders of the RCC use the wealth of words available to them to beat back critics. For every detractor pointing an accusatory finger, they produce a dozen texts in defense. All the while, RCC teachers feed the flock with the doctrines of the day.
On forums like this, one often finds defenders of the RCC arguing contradicting positions; and all parties are able to provide tomes of “evidence” from their church that supports their claims. The relativistic nature of their extra-biblical Authorities allow, even encourage, such slipperiness.
Give me the Bible, and keep your man-made relativism!
That's your opinion. But those closest historically to Christ and the Apostles say she is.
St. Justin Martyr (d. ) writes: "We know that He, before all creatures, proceeded from the Father by His power and will,. ..and by means of the Virgin became man, that by what way the disobedience arising from the serpent had its beginning, by that way also it might have an undoing. For Eve, being a virgin and undefiled, conceiving the word that was from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; but the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings, that the Spirit of the Lord should come upon her and the power of the Highest overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One that was born of her was Son of God, answered, 'Be it to me according to Thy word.'" (Tryph. 100)
As I noted earlier St. Irenaeus (d. 202) calls Mary the New Eve, stating that she became the "cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race... the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith." (Against Heresies, 3:22:4). He wrote that around 188 A.D.
Cardinal John Henry Newman sums it up nicely: "She co-operated in our salvation not merely by the descent of the Holy Ghost upon her body, but by specific holy acts, the effect of the Holy Ghost within her soul; that, as Eve forfeited privileges by sin, so Mary earned privileges by the fruits of grace; that, as Eve was disobedient and unbelieving, so Mary was obedient and believing; that, as Eve was a cause of ruin to all, Mary was a cause of salvation to all; that as Eve made room for Adam's fall, so Mary made room for our Lord's reparation of it; and thus, whereas the free gift was not as the offence, but much greater, it follows that, as Eve co-operated in effecting a great evil, Mary co-operated in effecting a much greater good.
I'll take the traditional interpretation of Scripture over Protestant private interpretation any day.
Christ's word to the Apostles:"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your mind whatever I have said to you." The Apostles and their successors have been and continue to be guided, as Jesus promised, by the Holy Spirit.
When Danny uses the term Sacred Heart of Jesus, he is referring to the created nature (not just the heart) of Jesus Christ. The Sacred Humanity (created--body & soul) was predestined by God from all eternity to be united with Him in the Person of the Word through the Incarnation. Blessed John Duns Scotus never uses the term "Sacred Heart", although if understood correctly there is nothing contrary to Scotus thesis in using this term. The key point for Scotus is that the Incarnation was not occasioned by sin but part of God's eternal plan even if Adam had not sinned. When God creates (before sin or any consideration of sin) He already sees the Word made flesh as the Alpha and Omega.
Just a brief explanation on the Sacred Heart devotion: Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is a devotion to the physical heart of Jesus, the God-Man, which is adorable (latria) by virtue of the hypostatic union (the Heart of Christ is united to the Divine Person of the Word, and therefore is adorable); it is a devotion to that which is symbolized by the heart, namely, the interior, moral center of the person—hence, devotion to the burning love of Jesus towards God in His sacred humanity and His burning love for men in both His sacred humanity and divinity; ultimately, it is a devotion to the Person of the Word who has assumed our human nature.
Hope that helps. God bless...
All professions create their own vocabulary. While a certain amount of exact communication occurs with the promulgation of words, it also serves to separate the "ins" from the "outs", and to stroke the egos of those with the greatest specialized vocabulary. Throw in a few phrases from a dead language, and you've got yourself the makings of an elite class willing to dictate their mandates to the sheeple.
Thank you all for joining in. I'm the one who posted this thread, not Danny Garland Jr.; I'm also the one who did not declare it a caucus since I had hoped there could be some discussion of the primary motive of the Incarnation.
There have been a lot of false statements about the Catholic Church. What you all claim we believe and what we, as Catholics, actually believe are clearly not the same. No Pope, no Saint, no Catholic, no Christian would ever claim that Mary is a goddess. That would be blasphemy. So please stop saying that we worship Mary as God or hold her as equal to Christ. We don't and never will.
We do differ from you in terms of why God chose to have a mother when He came into this world and what her subordinate role is. You maintain that she was just an incubator used by God and to be disposed of and, so it seems, even despised once He was done using her. But that is not the Gospel.
The Gospel says that Mary "has found grace with God" calling her "fully graced" (kecharitomene in Greek) (Lk. 1:28,31).
Scripture says that Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, exclaimed, "Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And how have I deserved that the mother of my Lord should come to me?...Blessed is she who has believed, because the things promised her by the Lord shall be accomplished."
The Holy Bible, the Word of God, says that henceforth all generations shall call Mary blessed.(Lk. 1:48).
The Gospel of St. Matthew tells us that the wise men, "entering the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and falling down they worshipped him." (Mt. 2:11).
And when we go to Calvary, who do we find. Scripture says, "Now there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother and ..."(Jn.19:25).
And at Pentecost, who is there in the upper room with the Apostles and disciples? Scripture says that in that room "Mary, the mother of Jesus" was present. (Acts 1:14).
At the very least all Christians must honor Mary as a model disciple of Christ, one to be imitated. As the Mother of Christ, in whom we have been incorporated as part of His Mystical Body, she is our Mother too. She is Mother of the whole Christ, head and members. We are her children whom she loved.
Mary is my spiritual Mother. I love her dearly. And she, of all Christians, has taught me to know, love and follow Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords wherever He leadeth me. Mary says, "Do whatever he tells you." (Jn. 2:5).
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
The words stop short, but the deeds continue. Action speaks louder than words.
God chose to have a mother when He came into this world
God does not have a mother. It is an impossibility. The MAN, Jesus, had a mother. It is a distinct difference. The RCC takes the fully God, fully Human reality of Jesus and intentionally blurs the boundary so as to elevate the status of Mary.
You maintain that she was just an incubator used by God and to be disposed of and, so it seems, even despised once He was done using her.
Could you point out a single post on this thread where this assertion is even inferred?
At the very least all Christians must honor Mary as a model disciple of Christ, one to be imitated.
I was with you through your comments regarding Mary up until this point. This is where we part company. Calling Mary "blessed" and "honoring" her are distinctly different. Imitating her? How so? The Bible offers very little information about her. What shall we imitate, our assumption about what she "must" have been? Be imitators of Christ.
His Mystical Body
Nothing "mystical" about it. When the Holy Spirit added me to the Church, I became part of the body of Christ.
she is our Mother too
Do I need to send her a card on Mother's Day? Is she going to start harping on me for not calling often enough? No sirree; she's the mother of the human, Jesus, and his siblings. And it might be argued that she became John's adpoted mother at the cross. That's it.
She is Mother of the whole Christ, head and members. We are her children whom she loved.
The inevitable, logical conclusion of this assertion is that she MUST be divine - a goddess. While the RCC will not use the word, the description is of Mary the goddess. Why not simply 'fess up and acknowledge your own logic?
But fr mary, the body that Jesus has now is not the human body that came at His Incarnation through Mary, but the spiritual body that came at His Resurrection through His Heavenly Father. Isn't that right???
Paul in the Epistles says the same thing to the Ephesian Church [1:6]. So does that mean that those in that Church were immaculately conceived, perpetually virgin, and assumecd bodily into heaven???
Scripture says that Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, exclaimed, "Blessed art thou among women"
Right ---- among women ---- not among men. Jesus said that of those born of woman, there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist? So was he immaculately conceived and assumed bodily into heaven???
"Blessed is she who has believed, because the things promised her by the Lord shall be accomplished."
Right, "she who has believed" not "she who was imaginatively conceived without sin".
The Holy Bible, the Word of God, says that henceforth all generations shall call Mary blessed.(Lk. 1:48).
Right but where does it say that those generations will call her "Mother of God, the Queen of Heaven, Queen Mother of All, and Our Lady of Everything from Here to Eternity"????
The Gospel of St. Matthew tells us that the wise men, "entering the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and falling down they worshipped him." (Mt. 2:11).
Right --- "they worshipped him" not her.
And when we go to Calvary, who do we find. Scripture says, "Now there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother and ..."(Jn.19:25).
And Mary Magdalene, and Salome, et al. Does that make them Queen of something too???
At the very least all Christians must honor Mary as a model disciple of Christ, one to be imitated.Why As the Mother of Christ, in whom we have been incorporated as part of His Mystical Body, she is our Mother too. She is Mother of the whole Christ, head and members. We are her children whom she loved. Mary is my spiritual Mother.
She may be the Mother of the Catholic Church but she is not the mother of those who know and believe their bibles. Paul tells us: "But Jerusalem which is above is the mother of us all." --- not Mary of Catholic mythology.
Mary says, "Do whatever he tells you." (Jn. 2:5).
Then why don't Mariologists do what Jesus told them from that point forward??? Why do they ignore both her words and His???
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
Where does it say anything in that confession about Mary's immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, assumption into heaven, her scapulas, visions, promises, myths, and/or the necessity of being part of a church that propagates such things. You and all Catholics need to return to the above confession, the scriptures underlying it, start taking its words seriously, and dump all that Mariolatry fantasy before it is too late.
Pjr12345,
By any chance are you a Nestorian?
Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
She was chosen by God through no righteousness of her own. She was in the line of David, that was her greatest asset. All Jewish women hoped to bear the Messiah, that was the "desire of women" spoken of in the bible.
We all know Mary is blessed among women, but let's face it, she was never aware of who Jesus was. She had to ponder things in her heart.
Lastly, here is one thing that the Catholics don't bother to explain, yet by reading the writings of popes etc. come to light. The Catholic church teaches you that you have no access to Jesus, except through Mary. None, zip, nada, totally unbiblical. That is why the big push to indoctrinate you all into her role as co-redemptor, mediator, the one offering up the divine victim, and whatever. Now that is just sad
Salome is Queen of the Desert. No wait, that was Priscilla of Australia
It was held in the mid-1060s, and gave Virgin Mary the titles Co-Redeemer, Mediator, Advocate: (The real reason it has not been officially accepted, it seems is that the idea is a huge obstacle for ecumenism, and that is the only reason)
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix. (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383).
"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Ireneus says, she being obedient (note not Jesus) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. (!!! she not only saved herself, now she saves us!) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...’ death through Eve, life through Mary.’ This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 56, pp. 380-381).
or Queen of Peace --- Shalom.
Pope Paul called Mary, the mother of God. Therefore, what is she if not equal to God Himself, a la PP2? She either is God, is a god, is a goddess
I suspect the author means the covenant of Salvation
Each member of the Trinity has a specific role. The Father creates and elects
The Son saves and judges
The Holy Spirit convicts, leads and teaches
Theologians employ a special phrase ("the economy of the Godhead") to describe the united operation of the three Persons. In whatever activity God engages, the three Divine Persons move in perfect unity, harmony, and cooperation. For example, Creation was the work of the Father (Gen. 1:1) by the Son (Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2) through the agency of the Spirit (Gen. 1:2). Compare also Genesis 1:26-27. There was no conflict, difference of opinion, or disunity within the Godhead in the work of Creation. The combined operation of the Godhead is also displayed in the resurrection of Jesus. Scripture attributes Christ’s resurrection to the Father (Acts 2:24; Acts 13:30), the Son (Jno. 2:19; Jno. 10:18), and the Spirit (Rom. 1:4; Rom. 8:11; I Per. 3:18). Although the three Persons of the Godhead have their respective offices and distinct identities, yet a marvellous oneness and unanimity prevails.
Can you give us a scripture that speaks to the "Sacred Heart" of Jesus?
If the term "Sacred Heart " refers to the human/ created heart of Jesus why do Catholics honor that ?
http://www.thesacredheart.com/
Two questions
1) Did God foreknow that men WOULD sin?
2)If men had never sinned what would the role of Christ had been? Would He have died on the cross?
No. I live in a house.
Seriously... I am a Christian by the grace and mercy of Christ. I study the Bible, accept it as God's Word and full revelation to man. I try to conform my beliefs and life to its teachings, rather than contort it (and thereby God) into my image.
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