Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
That is a given D-fender. Besides, the Council of Orange was a local council and not binding on the whole Church. Using it as if it were an Ecumenical Council is deceiving, especially when some of the Protestants have been specifically told that such local councils are not universally binding.
I am glad you brought this up. My views on this are a little "un-orthodox" but they are my views, so don't be going on bashing the EO Church for my views.
The Passover lamb is killed not for the atonement of sins but out of gratitude for deliverance from captivity and death. It has nothing to do with forgiveness of assumption of sins. The Passover lamb is slain and eaten as a thanksgiving meal, not a sacrifice offered to God in the Temple.
Here we have the first problem: by saying "Eat, this is my Body..." Christ makes Himself to be the Passover Lamb, a thanksgiving meal, not a sacrifice (sacrifices were ritually killed on the altar and burned as an offering to God).
The blood of the lamb was used not to wash away the sins, but as a "marker" on the doors in order for the Spirit (the giver of life!) , on a first-born human and animal killing spree, to "know" [sic] the inhabitants were Hebrews so as not to kill their firstborn (as if God needs "markers," LOL!).
Thus, the blood was salvific in this sense, but it is not consumed. Here is where the problem arises—again: Christ says "Drink, this is the Cup of my Blood..." yet Jewish Kosher Laws strictly prohibit consumption of any kind of blood!
Is this breaking of the Law? So, not only is consuming the blood of the lamb not in keeping with the Passover tradition, but it raises the issue of breaking Kosher laws.
Finally, just around this time of the year, about six months after the Passover, the Jews atone for their sins (Yom Kippur). The animal which takes on our sins in this ritual feast is a goat, not a lamb!More importantly, the goat is not ritualistically sacrificed and offered as burnt offerings, nor is it simply killed! There is no blood involved.
The Jews place their hands on the head of a goat (magically "transferring" their sins on to the poor animal) and the goat is then set free to run away with their sins! And they tell me Jews are not pagans!
So, you see, the whole story is somewhat mixed-up. Add to this the fact that the festival of the palms (Sukkot) does not take place around Passover (March/April), but around October, and we have to wonder where did the Palm Sunday come from, since it is unknown as a Jewish feast.
So, when you ask me if I am saying Jesus is not “The Lamb of God," I am telling you it's not that clear-cut. There are elements that seem to support that notion, but there are elements that clearly do not.
Very good, Kosta!
I could probably use a kevlar vest and helmet...I can feel it comin'
“I could probably use a kevlar vest and helmet...I can feel it comin’”
Well, that’s what you get for hanging around non-Caucus threads...but I’ve got your back at least for a little while, my Balkan Mountain Bandit Brother!
I saw a protestant tract once that traced it's roots back to the Montanists. I kid you not.
Stay frosty! :)
This may be of some interest here...
The scapegoat and Azazel. There is some debate as to the correct translation for the word `aza’zel (Strong #05799). Most translations render this word “scapegoat,” from the combination of the words `ez, “goat” (Strong #05795) and ‘azal, “to go away” (Strong #235). In Jewish tradition, however, Azazel was a fallen angel who was judged by God for his wickedness in leading other fallen angels and humans into sin. A record of this judgement is in the apocryphal/pseudepigraphal book of 1 Enoch, in a passage that fleshes out the events of Genesis 6. [A, E] There are no capital letters in Hebrew, so there is no indication from the text as to whether the word `aza’zel is a proper name or not, so there is speculation as to which meaning was intended. Is it possible that both meanings are important? We will explore both meanings for the purpose of fleshing out the significance of the scapegoat.
What does the idea of scapegoat, or sending away this goat as a substitute for sin mean?
Before we explore what significance, if any, is attached to the name “Azazel,” we should do a little background in 1 Enoch. The book was written likely by several authors in the second century BC, so it clearly postdates Leviticus 16 in its written form. However, Jude, the half-brother of Yeshua, quotes a portion of it in his epistle as prophecy, attributing this prophecy to Enoch. (See Jude 14-15.) By crediting this prophecy to Enoch, it appears that the book was known at least in oral tradition since Enoch’s day. In my opinion, this book carries some degree of weight, but at the very least, and most importantly for our study here, it provides insight into the Hebrew mind and traditions in Biblical times. The only question that remains is whether or not Azazel went by another name before the Book of Enoch was written. Let’s assume for now that it was the same. What connection and significance might Azazel have to the scapegoat? In the book of Enoch, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel, four archangels bring this charge to Yahuwah,
“’Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn.” (1 Enoch 9:6b-7a)
“And again the Lord said to Raphael ‘Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.’” (1 Enoch 10:4b-9a, underline added)
There are two things to note here. One aspect of sending the scapegoat away into the wilderness “for Azazel” was that it was going to the Abyss in which Azazel was cast. The other aspect is sin. What was placed on the scapegoat, and how does that relate to Azazel?
Why did Christ die on the cross? What purpose did it serve?
I think you’re a bit off base with the purpose of both the Passover Lamb and the offering of a Lamb in general.
The Lamb was intercessory, not for thanksgiving. The blood of the Lamb interceded for me with God.
That is why its says, “The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”
The Lamb interceded. Certainly, I’m thankful for that, but the purpose of the blood was not so that I’d be thankful. The purpose of the blood was to set up a sign of mercy between me & my sin and God.
FWIW, I don't think our friend kosta believes that the Passover was a real event.
Yes indeed! :
Rom 8:28 : And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
----------
Whether the "punishment" is before or after we shuffle off the moral coil is another issue, but the purpose of divine chastening of the saints is for their good.
Amen. Very well put. :)
I was hoping the Buggs would know we really wanted him in this conversation
Thank you so much for letting us know!
You know what the Bible says...loving those who love you is no effort...or something to that effect. Besides, they love me here. :)
Thanks. Interesting take on scapegoat.
He died so that we may be free from the bondage (of death). It was a deliverance from death to life. Ergo, the Pascha (Passover), which the West calls by a pagan name Easter.
Christ gave His life to the devil in exchange (ransom), not because He owed the devil but because He willed it out of love for humanity. As St. John Chrysostom said more than 16 centuries ago "death expected Man, and received God." Having no power over God, death could not keep Him and was defeated, while mankind was given a chance to be redeemed through the grace of God by submitting to, following and imitating Christ.
Now, before you all jump on me, this is Orthodox doctrine, as old as the Eastern Church (just about 2 millennia) perhaps not stated eloqunetly, but in a nutshell.
His Name is also Alpha and Omega.
Time is part of the Creation - not a restriction on the Creator.
In the absence of time, events cannot occur.
"Timeless" is a more appropriate word/concept for meditating on the Name "I AM" of the Creator of time and space.
First Cause and Final Cause - God's Name is Alpha and Omega - applies to the whole Creation in which time, including eternity, is but a part. IOW, Final Cause is not the end point on a timeline.
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. – Exodus 3:14
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. – John 8:58
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. – Revelation 1:11
I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. – Revelation 1:18
To God be the glory!
Passover lamb is Passover lamb. There is no other kind in Judaism. If Christ was compared to the Passover lamb then He was a thanksgiving meal.
But you are ignoring the abomination (in Judaism) of eating flesh and especially drinking blood (of any species).
That is why its says, “The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”
There is no such lamb in Judaism. Only a goat. And that goat is not a "Passover" goat but a scapegoat (Yom Kippur). Lambs do not atone for man's sins in Judaism, goats do.
You are not offering any explanations as to why are all these unusual and, for Judaism, alien and repulsive things being said. What they hear is blasphemy: cannibalism, and distortion/profaning of the Exodus.
The Lamb interceded. Certainly, I’m thankful for that, but the purpose of the blood was not so that I’d be thankful
In this particular case (Passover), the blood was merely a marker. The lamb who died for Passover saved the Jews from the wrath of God's Spirit, or so the story goes. So it was the lamb's blood that led to the deliverance of the Hebrews from captivity. The symbolism of Christ's blood delivering Christians from the captivity of death is directly related, but as far as Judaism is concerned (and at that time there were no Gentile Christians), the story is froth with incompatible practices and sayings.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.