Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. - Revelation 5:6
True. :) There is no evidence whatsoever, after 40 years of intensive digging by Israeli and other archaeologists, of any trace of Hebrew presence in the Sinai in the time alleged in the Bible. There is plenty of evidence of Egyptian presence there in the same time period.
Don't forget: the Bible claims close to a million people (over 600,000 men) if I am not mistaken. Such large tribes would leave unmistaken evidence of their presence.
Egyptian records, likewise, make no mention of this mass exodus. And Rhamses' son, who occupied Canaan shortly after Exodus, does not take any revenge on the nearby Israelites. Surely, he would have exacted some kind of vengeance on the Israelites if they had been instrumental in brining plagues and drowning his father's army.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Hebrews ever lived in Egypt in those days. If they did, it was in small groups and if any exodus occurred it was not masssive, but more like trickling.
The plagues, while they may have a scientific explanation, are still a stretch. And the idea that God's Spirit would go around smiting firstborn, animals included, is just as un-Christian as it gets.
In other words, sadly, everything seems to point to a popular myth. And popular myths are best tolerated because they play an important cohesive and personality role in many cultures.
First the Greek text says "he was raised" (hegenertai), passive tense. Second, what scriptures is he talking about?
Is it that Paul didn't say that, or that you don't believe Paul?
But your statement that the Spirit proceeds from both of Them does engage the "hot button" issue on origin.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. - John 16:7
Of course! The Spirit "resteth in the Son" (St. John of Damascus)
Christ died because and for our sins. He was the ransom with which we were set free. I do not believe that God killed Him to satisfy His wounded pride.
Good night. It's late here.
Thanks but this doesn't apply to the question of God dying.
And, in time, it still leaves the question: What happened to the long view that God is without beginning and without end and everlasting? God being outside time does not mean God dies in time; that God is mortal rather than immortal.
I cannot see how God can kill God without there being two Gods and without contradicting the basic tenets we hold about God.
thanks very much for your reply...
“Why did Christ die on the cross? What purpose did it serve?”
Check out my tagline.
This is Orthodox doctrine and the Catholics (and some Protestants) are moving in this direction. The atonement is no longer a price that is paid for our sins. Instead, it is nothing more than Christ showing us the way we should live. Man has been set free from death (because of Christ) and can now walk in a newness of life. After all, he has the will to do it.
I'm not sure what Orthodox scholars had to say on this 2,000 years ago, but it was certainly never the teaching of the early western fathers.
It’s not the world. It’s only those individuals who are more attracted to sin than to God.
“I’m not sure what Orthodox scholars had to say on this 2,000 years ago, but it was certainly never the teaching of the early western fathers.”
From +John Chrysostomos, 4th/5th century:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-easter.html
By the way, HD, Orthodox theology on the Crucifixion and Death of Christ isn’t quite so simple as you portray it.
Theologically, there are only Catholics and all the varying and expanding numbers of denominations. We don’t have denominations. There are Catholics and there are splitters and quitters.
And, from the arguments of the Reformed here, I can only come to the conclusion that the only Scripture that is infallible is the Scripture that backs one’s argument. The Scripture that refutes it is ignored completely and not even acknowledged in postings.
You might expand your explanation to: From my perspective (today, for a limited time only) there’s only synergism and monergism. That would be more accurate since the expectation is that Protestants can change their views at the drop of a hat because theology is of the whim of the individual. The individual, and not God.
Show me a Canon that addresses Indulgences.
The Council of Orange says that baptism confers the grace of God upon the individual and that the Holy Spirit works in the individual after that point. You guys say that the Holy Spirit ambushes the individual and that baptism results after that effect. Not Scriptural, is it?
With this you acknowledge that the Passover Lamb was interecessory. And it is a fact that the Lamb offered as a guilt offering was also intercessory.
He interceded for us through His shed blood. And the blood of the Passover Lamb was on the doorpost & lintel as intercession.
Those who feast on the sacrifice participate in the sacrifice. They are feasting on the intercession & they proclaim HIS DEATH until he comes.
These are basic things.
Even in communion, the great thanksgiving is for the intercession. It is not something that can be easily missed.
I wouldn’t call the Beatitudes “nothing more than Christ showing us the way we should live.”
Yes, and as long as I ask for forgiveness of my sins, His blood covers them. Certainly not my future sins! How can I ask for forgiveness of something I have not yet done?
Since Christ died for ALL men, EVERY ONE OF THEM, yet, all men aren't saved, what determines who goes to heaven and who doesn't? Repentance. Once I repent of sin because of God's grace, I am forgiven. Until that point, I am not forgiven. Christ expiation is only effective for those who ask for it. Otherwise, you imply that Christ's death was not as effective as Adam's first sin. As Romans 5 states, Christ's death was MORE EFFECTIVE than Adam's sin. Adam's sin universally effected mankind. Thus, Christ's death is expiation for ALL men who turn to Him in repentance. His expiation is freely offered to all men, but only conditionally given, based on a faith that includes repentance.
Regards
Everyone is attacted to sin-even Adam. What makes one person attracted more to sin than God?
That’s why we must be baptized.
Everyone is attracted to sin; no denying it. Yet, with the grace of God, we are also attracted to Him. Our life is spent between those forces; with the grace of God, we can choose holiness. But we don’t have to.
Kolo: Check out my tagline
It says it all.
Amen, brothers all.
Who paid the wages for your sins?
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