Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[HarleyD]

And, from the arguments of the Reformed here, I can only come to the conclusion that the only Scripture that is infallible is the Scripture that backs one’s argument.

Well, when the scriptures state:
"You did not choose me but I've chose you..."

There isn't much argument in my mind. People can say, "Well He REALLY didn't mean that. What He was REALLY is saying is "I've choosen you because I knew that you would really choose me."

There are arguments and then there are dumb arguments.

From my perspective (today, for a limited time only) there’s only synergism and monergism. That would be more accurate since the expectation is that Protestants can change their views at the drop of a hat

No, there will always be only two views; either man comes to God (synergism) or God comes to man (monergism). Whether Protestants (or others) constantly change their views is irrelevant to this truth. The truth of God never changes.

Show me a Canon that addresses Indulgences.

DECREE CONCERNING INDULGENCES.

Whereas the power of conferring Indulgences was granted by Christ to the Church; and she has, even in the most ancient times, used the said power, delivered unto her of God; the sacred holy Synod teaches, and enjoins, that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of [Page 278] by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless; or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them. In granting them, however, It desires that, in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church, moderation be observed; lest, by excessive facility, ecclesastical discipline be enervated. And being desirous that the abuses which have crept therein, and by occasion of which this honourable name of Indulgences is blasphemed by heretics, be amended and corrected, It ordains generally by this decree, that all evil gains for the obtaining thereof,--whence a most prolific cause of abuses amongst the Christian people has been derived,--be wholly abolished. But as regards the other abuses which have proceeded from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from what soever other source, since, by reason of the manifold corruptions in the places and provinces where the said abuses are committed, they cannot conveniently be specially prohibited; It commands all bishops, diligently to collect, each in his own church, all abuses of this nature, and to report them in the first provincial Synod; that, after having been reviewed by the opinions of the other bishops also, they may forthwith be referred to the Sovereign Roman Pontiff, by whose authority and prudence that which may be expedient for the universal Church will be ordained; that this the gift of holy Indulgences may be dispensed to all the faithful, piously, holily, and incorruptly. -Council of Trent

It states very clearly that those practices that was issued by Pope Leo were wrong.

The Council of Orange says that baptism confers the grace of God upon the individual and that the Holy Spirit works in the individual after that point. You guys say that the Holy Spirit ambushes the individual and that baptism results after that effect. Not Scriptural, is it?

On the contrary. Why would you want to be baptized if you don't have faith? Faith has to proceed baptism. The Council of Orange was logically incorrect had they thought it out a bit more.

[HarleyD]

Yes, and as long as I ask for forgiveness of my sins, His blood covers them. Certainly not my future sins! How can I ask for forgiveness of something I have not yet done?

Why can't you ask for forgiveness from your future sins? Doesn't God know what you will do next week, month, year?

...what determines who goes to heaven and who doesn't? Repentance. Once I repent of sin because of God's grace, I am forgiven. Until that point, I am not forgiven. ...Adam's sin universally effected mankind. Thus, Christ's death is expiation for ALL men who turn to Him in repentance.

But that's not what you said above. You stated that your sins are forgiven up to that point. Future sins are not covered. So some sins must not be covered.

[Alamo-Girl]

me: I personally eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men

you: Except yours of course. :)

I do not value my own musings - nor the musings of others - above the Father’s revelations in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, Scripture and Creation.

A thing is true because God says it.

For the word of the LORD [is] right; and all his works [are done] in truth. He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was [done]; he commanded, and it stood fast. – Psalms 33:4-9

You asked:

Does your personal revelation hold that God is One and eternal, without beginning, without end, everlasting?

Here is God’s revelation – not mine:

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. – Exodus 3:14

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. – Revelation 1:8

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. – Revelation 1:18

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. – Deut 4:2-3

I and [my] Father are one. – John 10:30

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. – John 17:20-23

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

The terms you use say that God is “eternal, without beginning, without end, everlasting.”

And that is fine as far as it goes – but it is incomplete to use the concept of time which is part of the Creation to describe the Creator.

God’s Name is I AM. He is timeless. Time is part of His Creation. There was a beginning of time, but there will be no end of time.

God the Father had no beginning, He is not caused, there is no origin of Him. He was not begotten.

Jesus Christ was begotten. He is “in” the beginning. Indeed, Christ is the beginning – everything that was made, was made by Him and for Him. He is the First Cause and the Final Cause, Alpha and Omega:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. – John 1:18

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. – I John 4:9

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. – John 1:1-3

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Col 1:15-20

Jesus Christ is the “firstborn of every creature” - the only begotten Son of God.

It is a subtle difference which the terms you prefer to use do not capture because it speaks of the One. And truly, the Father and the Son are One – there is no bright line between Them (imagine what a mess it would be for us if there were!):

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; - Hebrews 1:3

The Son was begotten. Likewise, the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (noting that the Orthodox are particularly sensitive to the distinction between the Spirit's origin, the Father, and His being sent, the Son.)

So both Names for God are Truth: I AM, Alpha and Omega.

Likewise, the Names Alpha and Omega should not be anthropomorphized to a timeline.

Everything flows from Genesis to Revelation. From the beginning, God is gathering His family for the new heaven and new earth. The purpose for this heaven and earth is the next heaven and earth.

To use an analogy, if the First Cause is the blueprint for the house – the Final Cause is the home in which we dwell.

But the Final Cause, the Omega, is not the end of time. Indeed, from our point of view it is the beginning of eternity, time without end.

Christ, Who is the Son of God the Father and is One in Him, was begotten, He lived and died and He lives without end:

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. – Revelation 1:18

And because of Christ, we who are God's adopted children are alive with Christ in God - even now, while yet in the flesh.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Col 3:3

Praise God!!!

[D-fendr]

I guess that’s a yes.

[D-fendr]

AG, I didn’t mean to be curt in my last reply. Didn’t know how to begin.

Respectfully, unless you’re God, it’s a belief also known as a doctrine. But you’re just repeating what God told you, right?

It’s sometimes difficult to have a discussion about religion with someone who believes they speak for God. I think I should just retire from it for a while.

best regards...

[Forest Keeper]

And here is the better orthodox view which was sadly curtailed by the murder of its author... CONFESSION OF FAITH - 1629 by Cyril Lucaris Patriarch of Constantinople

WoW! Thanks for the ping. No wonder he was persecuted. He told the truth. I had no idea that there were Orthodox around back then who really got it. :)

[kosta50]

Again, unwittingly you demonstrate that the blood came between the inhabitants of the house and the death angel and prevented the death sentence from visiting the house covered by blood

You are reading into it and making up something that has no parallel. The blood was a sign.

Apparently, the all knowing God in this instance could not tell which household was Egyptian and which Hebrew, so He "needed" a visible marker!

For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments—I am the LORD.  [Ex 12:12]

"The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt. " [Ex 12:13]

Also, previous verses show that the lamb could be a goat! [Ex 12:5] The lamb did not atone for their sins; and no one was drinking its blood.

The lamb WAS sacrificed for the life of the inhabitants of that house

This "sacrifice" was not to atone for any sins.

[kosta50]

It fascinates me first, that someone would think the Passover Lamb to be about thanksgiving; and second, that they would deny it to be intercessory

Why don't you Google "seder" and "thanksgiving" and see what you come up with?

[kosta50]

And this incorrect interpretation of Scripture was one of the prime motivations for the Reformation

When someone whose man-made "church" says that the early Church did not understand scriptuires and had it all wrong...yet could collect manuscripts you consider inspired, I need not go any further.

[jo kus]

Why can't you ask for forgiveness from your future sins? Doesn't God know what you will do next week, month, year?

How can you be sorry for something you have not yet done? That concept is beyond a simpleton like myself. Sorry.

You stated that your sins are forgiven up to that point. Future sins are not covered. So some sins must not be covered.

A sin is something that goes against the will of the Father. Sin cannot occur outside of time because ALL creation is subject to time and only creation can offend God's will. Thus, a sin has not occured yet. As a result, future sins are not covered because they don't exist yet.

Christ's death has the potential to forgive ALL men's sins. However, we know that ALL men will not ask for forgiveness. Sin is not covered until it is repented of - it is God doing the forgiving. Even Jesus does not presume to demand the Father to forgive us, because HE intercedes for us - HE ASKS FOR OUR SAKE that we be forgiven. Thus, even despite His death, Jesus continues to offer His once completed expiation for the sake of men who beg for forgiveness, as 1 John states. MAN must ask GOD for forgiveness - which is what Jesus CONTINUES to do. Present tense.

Regards

[Lord_Calvinus]

***... mankind was given a chance to be redeemed... by submitting to, following and imitating Christ.***

Salvation is possible if man does a, b, c, & d.

Nothing but working your way to heaven.

***Christ gave His life to the devil...***

Yep, thank God for the Reformation and restoration of the Church from this kind of devil in charge theology.

[Uri’el-2012]

Apparently, the all knowing God in this instance could not tell which household was Egyptian and which Hebrew, so He "needed" a visible marker!

That is one way to spin it.

It could also be seen as those who follow the L-rd's commandments are saved; Jew or gentile.

Those who refuse to do what the L-rd commands; Jew or gentile will perish.

Being a member of a denomiation will not save; calling on the Name of the L-rd will save.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua

[HarleyD]

Bingo! Yet, the Protestants will tell you that we can repent only because God gives us repentance

Wrong. Most Protestants will tell you man generate this repentance same as what jo kus stated.

THIS

Protestant will tell you God grants us the ability to repent.

Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

2Co 7:9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.

2Co 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

2Ti 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

In other words, HD, you will tell me that you can repent only if He has already decided to forgive you

You're catching on. ;O)

[HarleyD]

Two points to make here. One, methods of baptism and their respective validity may be the hottest topic, but it's not the only topic. Eschatological beliefs vary widely,

Sure, that's true. And while we do hold very lively discussions on these topics most will tell you it doesn't make any difference. These are more subtle points of view that have little to do with justification, sanctification, atonement, election, predestination, and all the other far more important things.

I am very set in my ways on baptism but I can assure you, if a Reformed Presbyterian church opened up across the street from me, I would think nothing of leaving my Southern Baptist church.

[HarleyD]

How can you be sorry for something you have not yet done?...MAN must ask GOD for forgiveness - which is what Jesus CONTINUES to do. Present tense.

Then if you sinned right before you die, where would you go? Would your sin be forgive?

[D-fendr]

Nice name...

Welcome to the thread.

[Col Freeper]

Marker Post

[MarkBsnr]

I’d go a little further than that. The Baptists came out of the Anabaptist (Zwingli) movement which generally had a heaping helping of Calvin, and the Presbyterians came out of the Wesleyan movement who was noted for opposing Calvin.

There are some great theological gaps between the two, not just baptism.

[jo kus]

Most Protestants will tell you man generate this repentance same as what jo kus stated.

Well, I hadn't expected that reply from a person of the Reformed persuasion. If it is true, that is good to hear, with the caveat that there is no repentance without grace from above. I imagine you'd agree, since you posted the pertinent Scriptures.

Regards

[jo kus]

Then if you sinned right before you die, where would you go? Would your sin be forgive?

Sounds like a question my 60 year old Dad asked me.

So what would happen to a guy who jumped off a building to commit suicide and changed his mind half way down?

I will tell you the same thing...

I leave it in God's hands and His mercy.

To further add, I guess that person would, at best, be "heading" to Purgatory. Such a person would need purification before joining in union with the Almighty God.

Regards