Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
(He convinced me that abortion was a heinous crime but a vasectomy was ok.)
Nope.
Nope.
I heard an excellent Reformed sermon on Isa 63 so it's not my material. God considered Himself the Savior of these unbelievers, but from these people perspective they wanted nothing to do with God. I think that is exactly what John and Peter are talking about. Our Lord Jesus blood does not atone for them nor does it cover their sins. Yet God, like the unbelieving Israelites, considers them His Savior.
I will say this is rather bizarre (did I spell it right P-M?). What is even more strange is that God deliberately harden their hearts and caused them to err. Nevertheless there it is and I think it is consistent the what John and Peter states.
1) God considers Himself to be Savior of mankind.
2) Man doesn't want a Savior. Man rebels against God as Savior and vex His Spirit.
3) God's wrath rests on man.
4) God hardens man and cause him to err for His divine cause.
5) God purposely saves a remnant to be a people holy to Him for His glory.
6) Those who are save are covered because of our Lord Jesus' atonement.
7) God initiates all steps. Without His intervention all would be lost.
There is no “new” Revelation. There can, however, be a deeper understanding of Revelation, there must be, how else can you explain the sudden devotion to the new dogmas of sola scriptura and sola fide ;)
OK, good. I'm glad we agree.
Physical destruction. It says nothing about their everlasting reward or punishment. It may seem likely that they were rewarded with everlasting hellfire, but it does not specifically say that.
While I agree with you that it would not be our place to judge (reasonably) specific individuals, in this case I would say we are given VERY strong clues, as you suggest:
Gen 13:13 : Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the Lord.
Gen 18:26 : 26 The Lord said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom , I will spare the whole place for their sake."
We know the rest of the sequence here. There were less than 10 righteous people in the whole city at the time it was destroyed.
2 Peter 2:4-10 : 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
Jude 7 : 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
I can't top this one! :)
“Nope.”
“Nope.”
You know, one of the problems with lawyers is if it can be answered in one short phrase they will take a thousand words to introduce the answer. You must not be getting paid by the word.
Are you wearing shorts yet?
Reformed theology is odd to me, mostly because of the idea of God creating people to condemn without seeing their demerits. This is against what the Bible says. If you can post some Scriptures that refute this, as well as Christ's atonement was limited, maybe we could continue, but as it stands, these two things are really show-stoppers for me.
Regards
"Whatever you hear from them [the Scriptures], let that be well received by you. Whatever is without them refuse, lest you wander in a cloud." (De Pastore, 11)
Sola Scriptura?
FK wrote: How can you possibly conclude that? Because God's selection process is not obvious to you, YOU feel you have the right to declare it arbitrary? What could you possibly know about how that is decided? That's gotta be a few demerits on Roman Catholicism for assault on God's sovereignty. :)
Baloney. God has revealed He is Love. He is Truth. Thus, when God says He desires all men to be saved, what sort of God would say that AND THEN, BY HIS OWN "good pleasure", create men specificallly for the purpose of NOT being saved! This "god" of yours is a liar. This is why I keep saying "double-talk".
On the one hand, God is not the author of sin. But then God creates being who can do NOTHING BUT SIN! SOMEHOW, this is MAN'S FAULT! Double-talk...
On the one hand, God wants ALL men to be saved. But then God HIMSELF creates men who have absolutely no ability to be saved. Double-talk...
On the one hand, God is all powerful and sovereign. But then God is so worried that man might be of any value that God must annihilate man, out of love, no doubt. Double-talk...
On the one hand, the reformers claim they wish God's sovereignty to be first and foremost. But then, when God speaks, the reformers close their ears and ignore God's sovereign will expressed in Scriptures. This "sovereignty of God" is an abstraction in the mind of the reformer. Double-talk
On the one hand, the reformer claims God's sovereignty. On the other hand, the reformer's sacraments are based solely on THEIR OWN faith, THEIR OWN belief. Double-talk
On the one hand, the reformer says he is saved for eternal life and cannot fall. On the other hand, the reformer will refuse to admit that people who make the VERY SAME CLAIM have fallen away. Double-talk...
All we are doing is going around in circles, as I said before. What is sad is that you do not even realize the corner you have painted yourself into. You take Scriptures that refer to the community and appropriate them to you personally. You take Scriptures that talk about predestination to the Church, and you think that refers to eternal life. You get confused on Romans 9, thinking they refer to individuals, when they clearly are directed at nations and who God has chosen at the national level. You see Scriptures that show that God sends people to hell AFTER they have sinned, and you think that God actually made them do it (while simultaneously claiming that God doesn't cause sin...). You ignore Scriptures that have God calling out to men who have sinned - where it clearly shows that MAN has made the choice and God does NOT force them to return.
Whatever...
Calvinists don’t care where God finds the elect. They are not necessarily Calvinists, although we would hope that most Calvinists are.
Then I stand corrected. Do all Calvinists believe they are of the elect going to heaven?
Regards
Again, you offer a false conclusion, and thus, the rest of your statements are built upon sand.
God offers forgiveness to all men, but all men will not accept it. Because you presume that men cannot choose, EVEN WITH GOD'S GRACES, you are stuck in a corner of your own making, with no way of getting out except by inventing a theology that is inconsistent with other parts of Scriptures. How long will you continue to ignore the other half of the story? You must take into account God's grace AND man's free will. By focusing only on grace and eliminating man's free will, you do injustice to God's own Word.
And you say God is Sovereign? Is this an abstract idea that you have, or does it really mean something to you? Because if it did, you would ACCEPT GOD'S SOVEREIGN WORD AT ITS FACE VALUE, rather than trying to rationalize and ignoring part of His Word.
I have already given you numerous Scriptures detailing that God desires all men to be saved. You cannot deny this. You have not been able to refute that. Yet, you continue to ignore it and hold to your one-sided theology that ignores God's OWN WILL! Why are you ignoring God's Will, if it is Sovereign? Do you take that seriously?
We have discussed Romans 5 - and you ignore the implications. We have discussed Romans 1. Again, you ignore God's Word. What more can I say to you? You are fixated on a theology that is false, but because you have invested so much in it, you refuse to give it up. Is this so different than the Pharisees of Jesus' time?
Regards
In other words, God loves the elect so much that He brings them to Heaven everlasting, and He hates the non elect so much that He condemns them to everlasting hellfire.
And Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross was insufficient for all men, right?
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. 15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.” (Matthew 7:13-27)
32 “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 10:32-33)
28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)
20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ. 21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. 22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.” 24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? (Matthew 16:20-26)
19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20)
14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:14-18)
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, `From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ “ (John 7:37-38)
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26)
30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:30-31)
14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. 15 So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:14-16)
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6-8)
8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” (Romans 10:8-13)
1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. (1 Timothy 2:1-6)
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 4:10)
9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
20 `Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. (Revelation 3:20)
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. (Revelation 22:17)
The Scriptures are clear that Jesus came to give His life for the world, anyone, the ungodly, sinners, and He invites all to come to Him. There is more joy over one repentent sinner in Heaven...
If you were proud of Scripture, your new religion would host a copy that they believed to be reasonably correct.
Why host the WCF and the Confessions in such a loving and prominent way? It says to me that that is what the OPC values most.
Ah, I wasn’t clear enough.
I was attempting to make the point that all Calvinists believe that they are of the Reformed definition of the elect, not necessarily stating that all the Reformed definition of the elect are Calvinists (although some appear to at least lean that way).
Unlike the brake system in your example, the human translates will into action, if even only in thought. This is the unique contribution to sin by a willful human as a secondary cause. This is what puts the responsibility onto humans. The brake system did not decide to fail. The human does.
FK: “From a legal standpoint, this is not correct in the United States. In this country, unless there is a duty present (e.g. parent-child), no one is required to help a “victim”. Now, a few foreign countries DO have laws as you suggest, but not here.”
Aside from Massachusetts, it appears that you are correct about the United States.
Since I was curious, I looked it up. The long and the short of it is that Massachusetts has a "duty to report" law (Chapter 268, section 40), but this is not a "duty to aid" law in the physical sense. It's a small matter, but you were right to mention it.
FK: “But as I said, in Apostolic theology, God somehow escapes this morality even when the victims are God’s own children. IOW, under your beliefs, God would be arrested even under U.S. law. :)”
It’s the difference between offered assistance and frogmarching the unknowingly selected elite.
What is the correct way to deal with children who don't know what's good for them? Is it to "offer assistance" or is it to frogmarch them? Neither of my children would be alive today if all I ever did was "offer assistance". :)
Sola Scriptura?
No. St. Augustine and Scripture both recognize the Church as having authority to decide on matters not directly addressed in Scripture. Even Protestants recognize, although tacitly, the need for extra biblical authority on matters not specifically addressed in Scripture, hence their need to co-opt the African Saint to their cause particularly in the matter of predestination.
Even Peter hedges his bet.
But Jude says “they serve as an example of” which is pretty darn close to stating as fact. Likely? Sure. Definitely? I’m not quite there.
Reggie, you know that I and every other Catholic in the world, including St. Augustine, reject the doctrine of sola scriptura as a non-Christian tradition.
Simple question: Where/when did Augustine reject the authority of Scripture?
Please note I will not accept a trumped up definition of Sola Scriptura.
Better yet please put your definition of Sola Scriptura in print. HERE___________________________________.
How about we replace the text and see the results? ...... It doesn’t really read any better, you know.
To me it reads the same, so the intended purpose is accomplished, that of dispelling any idea that God experiences human-like gleeful giddiness in the suffering of others.
The quibble that we have between us is the difference between frogmarching the elite out from a line of people headed for hell and making them love Him, and freely offering salvation to all who would accept it from Him and who would then freely love Him.
I think I know what you're saying so I won't quibble over a quibble, and just say "close enough". :) I suppose this goes back to what sort of child the human is before God. We would say the comparison is much closer to a very young child, one who it utterly incapable of taking care of himself, and if fully dependent on the parent for everything.
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