[HarleyD]

First, Irenaeus did not believe in, or teach the immortality of the soul by nature.

This is an absolutely incredible statement to make since I have not only posted (#10347) Irenaeus stating specifically that "Souls...are immortal although they once had a beginning." but I posted the link to where Irenaeus makes that comment in Against Heretics, Book 2. It is one thing to say Irenaeus might have held heretical views but it is quiet another to tell me that he didn't say something all the while that I'm reading he did.

Second, Tertullian was a heretic because he embraced Montanism which teaches, among other thing, that the prophesies of the Montanists supercede those of the Apostles.

Come, come now. How many posts have we talked about the Orthodox Fathers have been granted the keys to the kingdom and have the power to redefine what the Apostles stated? In fact I remember in one exchange (could have been here) that it was stated the Orthodox don't allow bishops to marry and are free to reinterpret Paul's direction. What's the difference between your complaint of the Montanists and the way the Church behaves now?

In reading about Tertullian I don't see any real substantive argument against him except that he didn't like some of the customs of the Church. I'd have to study it more but he sounds like the first Protestant to be perfectly honest.

The immortality of the soul is not its nature (i.e. it is not created immortal) but it is given by God (grace). If God created immortal souls then we would be God. You will just have to do a little more Church Fathers studying before you get the whole picture.

I have posted numereous references to the fathers and the Catholic website showing this is wrong. If you would like to post your own references I would be happy to study them.

The problem with Tertullian and others on the Latin side...is that their misconceptions always started with the poor understanding of Greek...

Yes, yes. It always comes back to being misunderstood. Jerome didn't understand Greek. Augustine didn't understand Greek. Tertullian didn't understand Greek. Ireaneus didn't understand Greek. No one really understand it except for the eastern fathers who understood.

Ireaneus has another quote:

"For that there is nothing whatever openly, expressly, and without controversy said in any part of Scripture respecting the Father conceived of by those who hold a contrary opinion, they themselves testify, when they maintain that the Saviour privately taught these same things not to all, but to certain only of His disciples who could comprehend them, and who understood what was intended by Him through means of arguments, enigmas, and parables."

Iraeneus-Against Heresy, Book II

[kosta50]

This is an absolutely incredible statement to make since I have not only posted (#10347) Irenaeus stating specifically that "Souls...are immortal although they once had a beginning."

Then you must not have come across his argument that souls can "endure as long as God wills them to endure" (perseverant autem quoadusque eas Deus et esse, et perseverare voluerit).

In other words, his argument is that the soul is  not itself a life: it must be given life.And that which is given is outside of the self, its nature. Only God is Life itself (Adversus haereses II, 34).

Like I said, you need to get your facts straight, HD.

Clement of Alexandria, who was a Platonist, admits that the soul was not immortal "by nature" (hinc apparet quoniam non est naturaliter anima incorruptibilis, Adumbrationes, I Petri 1:9) .

+Jerome states "I do not say, indeed, that all souls die."

If Man from the beginning had chosen things immortal, in obedience to God's commandments, he would have been rewarded with immortality and have become God, "an adoptive God," deus assumptus, Theos anadihthis (+Theophilus of Antioch, Ad Autolycum II, 24 and 27).

"The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die" (Tatian, Oratio ad Graecos, 13).

Blessed Augustine qualifies the immortality of the soul to be given by God: Anima hominis immortalis est secundum quendam modum suum; non enim omni modo sicut Deus (Epist. VFF, ad Hieronymum (and is therefore not by its nature itself life), and he also states in two instances (Jo., tr. 23, 9; cf. De Trinitate, 19.15, and De Civ. Dei, 19.3) that the soul is mortal according to the mutability of this life (mortalis in quantum mutabilis).

+John of Damascus states  that even Angels are not immortal by nature, but only by grace (Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith II, 3)

[T]hat "intellectual beings are not immortal by nature" [but only by the grace of God] (+Sophronius, the Patriarch of Jerusalem, VI Ecumenical Council,  681 AD)